Deep Dive mit Torsten Koerting — Folge 061
Get ready for the future - Interview mit Peter Taylor
2021-02-19

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Quelle: https://torstenkoerting.com/podcast/061-get-ready-for-the-future-interview-mit-peter-taylor

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Torsten J. Koerting: Hallo und ein herzliches Willkommen zu dieser neuen Podcast-Folge und auch heute wieder ein Interview und zwar mit jemandem, der eine lebende Koryphäe des Projektmanagements ist. Es gibt nicht viele in diesem Kontext und in diesem Rahmen, die ich im Projektmanagement nachhalte und das über viele Jahre, fast schon Jahrzehnte herausstechen und das nicht nur in den lokalen Märkten, sondern international und da ist er jemand, der mit seinen unzähligen Büchern, ich glaube zweistellige Anzahl, die er dort in den letzten Jahren konzipiert und auch geschrieben hat, die Menschen und die Projektmanagement-Landschaft inspiriert. Er ist jemand, der auf den großen Projektmanagement-Bühnen dieser Welt steht, ob das die PMI, die GPM und andere Organisationen sind, die mit ihren Konferenzen in der Lage sind, die Projektmanager der lokalen Märkte zu adressieren und zu inspirieren. Er ist sicherlich jemand, der durch seinen Humor, durch seine Energie und durch seinen Slapstick und teilweise auch durch die Ironie, die er hat, heraussticht und in der Lage ist, Menschen zu begeistern. Er ist jemand, der in Rio de Janeiro bei einer Keynote in der Lage ist, 400 Menschen die La Ulla Welle zu machen, also das, was ich so noch nie in einer Konferenz erlebt habe oder in einem anderen Setting 300 Projektmanagern einfach mal die rote Pappnase aufsetzt. Das sind alles Elemente, die ihn ausmachen und er ist jemand, den ich vor einigen Jahren persönlich kennenlernen durfte für ein gemeinsames Projekt, denn er war hier in Frankfurt, um für eine Partnerorganisation einen Workshop zu facilitieren. Der Projekt aus der Hölle und damals und auch heute sind Projekte in Schieflage ja immer wieder Projekte, die herausstechen und er sicherlich jemand ist, der diese Projekte auch mit einem zwinkernden Auge und speziell die Menschen, die sie beleben dürfen, die sie wieder auf die richtige Spur bringen dürfen, mit diesem zwinkernden Auge inspiriert. Und sein berühmtestes Buch, The Lazy Project Manager, der faule Projektmanager, wird immer wieder zitiert, rezitiert und auch in den unterschiedlichsten Medien veröffentlicht. Und in dem heutigen Interview, jetzt nach einigen Monaten oder fast schon Jahren, in denen wir nicht gesprochen haben, in diesem Interview sprechen wir unter anderem darüber, was sein neuestes Buchprojekt war, welches er in den letzten Monaten der Pandemie innerhalb von 21 Tagen initiiert und umgesetzt hat. The Project Less Manager, also der Projektlose Manager, ich glaube ein sehr provokanter Titel auch in Zeiten wie diesen. Wir sprechen darüber, wie er die letzten Wochen und auch Monate wahrgenommen hat, als jemand, der letztes Jahr im Mai sich wieder dazu entschieden hat, selbstständig zu werden und am Markt zu inspirieren. Und wir sprechen darüber, wie er diese Veränderungen, die aktuell stattfinden im Kontext der Projektmanager und auf die Organisationen, wie er das wahrnimmt. Und wir schauen darauf, wie sich die Welt des Projektmanagements als solches verändert, wie nämlich die Artificial Intelligence bzw. wie Teams sich verändern, um sie richtig auch als Projektmanager zu adressieren. Und das alles natürlich mit der gehörigen Portion Energie, mit dem gehörigen Schalk in Natten und ihr werdet ihn gleich spüren und erleben. Deswegen jetzt schon mal viel Spaß bei dieser Folge und nun herzliches Willkommen an Peter Taylor!

Gast 2: Und in that perseverance, I found new levels of strength.

Gast 1: Und dann habe ich angefangen, das zu machen.

Torsten J. Koerting: Wehigkeit weitergeben zu dürfen. Aber es hat was mit Geduldigsein zu tun. Also zu erfahren, was denn die jungen Menschen bewegt.

Gast 2: You're really making me think with these questions, it's wonderful. Peter, great for having you in my podcast, Peter. Oh, it's delightful to be in your podcast. Thank you very much. It's been quite some years that we have been in touch. And it all started a couple of years ago when I met you for another project that we tried to initiate. The project from hell, as well as you've been in one of my workshops as an expert in positioning yourself. Because we see yourself positioning yourself all the time in new roles, but with the core standard theme. And it's great to catch up again, Peter, as part of this podcast. And maybe the twist I would like to give it in this series we're going to do is to look at the market, especially for leaders, managers, and what has happened in that super challenging way. And maybe we start off with one of the initiatives that you are famous for. And this was really one that caught my eye. And I was a little bit too late to participate. And you've been really strict in making sure that I can't step in because I missed it by a couple of days.

Gast 2: That you have created a challenge, a 21-day challenge, which resulted in the book, The Project Less Manager. So tell us something about that initiative, how it all came together, and what you have received during that call.

Gast 1: Yeah, no, it's kind of fun. So, yeah, I mean, the situation was we'd entered lockdown. The world was beginning to change into the new normal. I was seeing a lot of – I mean, I'm very active on LinkedIn. So anybody out there who's listening, join me on LinkedIn, I'd love it. And I've seen just so many project managers talking about projects being stopped, projects being stalled, projects being cancelled, project managers looking for jobs. Unfortunately, you know, the impact was really coming in. And, you know, what can you do? I did a couple of things already about, you know, presentation skills, remote presentational skills. I've done something around, you know, project fun, using my book, The Project Manager Who Smiled. And then, I don't know, I just woke up one Sunday morning and thought, well, people keep talking to me about writing. Well, let's get some project managers to write a book. We can do it.

Gast 1: You know, they have time right now, so why not? So I just came up with this 21-day challenge to basically write a book, get it published. So all the editing, all the formatting, et cetera, cover design, and get it published, published through Amazon KDP, which is, you know, an easy-to-do platform. I've done it before. I've self-published books as well. So on the Monday, I just put together a very simple brief, which says, look, you know, if you're interested, we're going to be writing this book. It's about working in this strange world that we're now in. It's called a lockdown genius or legacy inspiration was the kind of two subtitles of the book, the sections. Yes, you've got 500 words maximum. Yes, this is a rigid timeline. Yes, you have to deliver on time or we're out. And I was amazed. I got, you know, I think, you know, 80, 85 people contacted me and said yes, et cetera. Most of them made it on time. Don't be shamed here. You know, not everybody could. People had busy lives. And we selected 56, I think it is, to go into the book. And so, yeah, it was brilliant. We put it all together. And I even got the, it's one of the craziest covers out there because it's, you know, I thought the children of the project managers are bored as well. So I got the, I put the challenge out there for the project managers' children to design the cover. And it is a, it's a wonderful cover with, you know, a crayon drawing by some, one child, beautiful colors. It's sort of a, sort of a project management super, super lady, I think it is, based on the length of hair. It's brilliant. And we did it. We did it in 21 days. We put it out there and it's available on Kindle and in printed format. And, you know, there's some great stuff in there. There's some really great inspirational stories and ideas that people can use right now in this new normal that we're in. So great work to all the project managers.

Gast 2: And I admire this kind of energy and execution power that you put into these kind of projects. And you're breaking through some, some limiting beliefs. And you have other people like those 56 that you have selected to break through their limiting beliefs. That a project like this could be done on the timeline that no one could imagine. And what have, what are the themes that you have seen being contributed to the book? Is there anything that is related to the current time we're going through?

Gast 1: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, the chapter which is lockdown inspiration is just what can you do now? Just one simple one, which I really love. It was a lady that contributed this one. She worked with the executive leaders of a software company. And what she recognised was that as they transitioned to remote working, complete remote working, they were doing the work. They were having the meetings about the work. It didn't really change, apart from the fact people worked physically in a room together. But what she realised was all of that casual stuff, all of those conversations you have at the water cooler, the coffee machine, over lunch, down the pub after work. I remember pubs. They were used to wonderful places we used to go to. There used to be a place like this, right? Yes, yes, children. There used to be things called public houses. And they served beer. But so what she recognised was this, you know, the accidental stuff that happens. Because if you think about it, when you're at work, those people could probably account for half their time if they're in the office. But what were they doing the other half? It was they were bumping into someone. They were talking to someone. They were sharing an idea or a challenge. So she led the kind of creation of a regular weekly coffee morning, which was just, it's not about work. Just join us virtually, and we'll talk. Although they do naturally progress to work conversations. And they have a monthly kind of happy hour, which is a, you don't have to drink. But, you know, you can do if you want.

Gast 1: And that one is a much more of a social engagement to bring people from different groups of the organisation together. Because all of that was missing. And that's something I would challenge people right now. I think there's two big challenges out there. One is, is that kind of drawing in the stuff that is missing. Yes, we can work at home. I can have a meeting with you. I can have a meeting with the next person I've got lined up. But it may just be about that. And I miss out so much by not connecting to people. And the other thing is in the area of project teams. You know, people should be really thinking about re-teaming, I call it. You know, in the sense of, like, you've got to re-engage your project teams or your departmental teams. Not everybody loves this world. Not everybody is happy being remote and isolated. Some people like it, some more than others. And so, you know, you kind of have to put more effort in, I think, is kind of the drive from that one. So that's one of the ones I really loved. And there's another one around the kind of, you know, the ability to be creative. I'm sure this is something you recognise, is this kind of online, remote, virtual world. You can still be very creative. You don't have to be in a meeting room with flip charts and post-it notes and brainstorming sessions and all that. You can be very creative in the virtual world. So, again, a couple of, I mean, there's lots in there. I think all of the 56 contributions are good. But that's a couple of strong themes.

Gast 2: Have you, we're talking about you and how you have perceived the current pandemic in February, March. You're self-employed, you're on the market, contributing to organisations as well as to individuals. How you have perceived that change in February, March as part of the lockdown. But before we come to that, what have you, what have you perceived by the ones that have contributed to that book? Is there anything where that process, the initiative that you have kicked off, have inspired them, have taken them out of their, you know, lockdown, their mental lockdown that they have? And then they realise, wow, there is something out there. And an initiative like yours could inspire myself, you know, getting back into the energy. Have you perceived something like that, that you're making a change just by doing this?

Gast 1: I think, well, first of all, I would say that I think the ones that contributed, the ones that already were breaking free of the restraints. I think whenever there's a crisis, there hasn't been a crisis like this, but whenever there is a problem, there are two forms of behaviour. I always remember when I, you know, I was running a PMO with loads of project managers during the famous Icelandic volcano eruption that closed air travel across Europe. Right. And I saw two fundamentally different behaviours in my project managers out there, because they were all over Europe working on projects. Half of them just went into their own personal lockdown. Well, I'm going to stay where I am until this is all over. And half of them said, you know what, I'm coming home and I'm going to find a way. And it was some incredible journeys. I mean, one guy actually left Europe and got into South America to come back into Portugal. And it's an unbelievable story. And I think the same thing is true. The 56 people who contributed, I think, are ones that go, I'm not just going to sit here and let life take care of itself. I'm going to do something. So I think that. But how are the people who contributed? I mean, you know, I'm working with a few. You know, I'm doing some personal coaching with some, which is fantastic. More than one of them I know has started writing blogs. I mean, they have this vision of possibly writing a book at some point in time. So they're gradually moving forward and they've started writing regular sort of monthly blog articles, which is fantastic. So, yeah, it's just I think it's great when you can do something like that allows people to to see the next step in their lives, what they could achieve. And don't, yeah, don't face don't face a barrier and go, that's it.

Gast 2: They're the ones that just, you know, sit back and say, right, that is my destiny. And I wait until it's over. And the other ones that have the mindset to find a way to put themselves into energy, to find a way to come back home when it comes to that. What have you seen with the ones that just sit back and say, right, this is my destiny? Did you see anybody that you were able just by that initiative and how they were contributing to your project that the mind has shifted in one way or the other? And they just stepped back and realized, wow, there is something that I could do, actually.

Gast 1: I think quite a few of the ones have contributed. I mean, because suddenly, you know, they had an additional network of 55 other people to start with. And I know there are some conversations going on between them. I think they're kind of recognizing that they're kind of spirits and how do they help. And we, you know, we all know that, you know, you survive this business world by networking and your contacts and, you know, who knows where the next job is going to come from. That's part of the excitement and it's part of the scare sometimes, wondering when that email or phone call is going to come in. So I think that alone allowed them to connect with lots of people and it allowed them to see that there were many people in a similar situation to them. But, you know, I'm going to go back. I still feel the ones that contribute, they've already changed that mindset. They're already going, I'm not sitting here and waiting. You know, I'm going to do something with my time of value. And this is a neat idea of how I can contribute something.

Gast 2: It's a great initiative and it shows to everybody out there, a project like this. A 120-page book, 56 great individuals have contributed to, could be done in 21 days from initiating that project until delivery, sort of speak, when it's available on Amazon. Which is a great initiative and a message to everybody out there. The Mount Everest or the mountain that seems to be like Mount Everest can be climbed in less days than you would ever think of. So you were a great role model in that, Peter. And thanks for taking those 56 individuals with you. And thanks for being that strict. Because I missed out on a couple of days. You weren't alone.

Gast 1: You weren't alone. There were a few people. I think I can't actually say it. It's also, you know, it's 21 countries contributed as well. Wow. Incredible. And I conclude the book, actually. And it's probably a good way to wrap this bit up of the interview in the sense that I said, well, if 56 project managers can come together and achieve that in 21 days. Imagine what the 16 million of us out there, supposedly out in the world, project management people. Imagine what we could do if we really got together and focused. We can achieve anything.

Gast 2: Yeah. And there are, you know, the big ones out there, whether it's Greta who is able to create an entire movement in the world. Yeah. Or whether it's Elon Musk that is changing the whole business and perception around space, creating a movement just by one sentence. We need to become a multi-planet species. And creating with that kind of vision and that kind of inspiration, taking other ones with them and let them be part of the movement and contribute. And whether it's on a small scale or a smaller scale like you did or with Greta or Elon, these are the role models that I think we need, especially in our days, to create a vision that's potentially bigger than ourselves. So how you were back self-employed from May 2019. So from last year, you made the bold decision to go back out and be an influencer for the whole world, so to speak. You're one of the, as I mentioned in my introduction, one of the few ones that are role models that are, I would say, lighthouse figures in the project management market. How have you perceived less than a year after you made the decision to become self-employed again, how have you perceived and sort of survived the start and going through that pandemic?

Gast 1: Yeah, I mean, so, yeah, okay, so in some ways I've been prepared for this because I, you know, I've done this three times now. You know, I tend to, you know, when a great opportunity comes along, and it's happened the last two times, a company's come to me and said, Peter, we want, you know, we're looking to build a PMO from scratch, global enterprise level PMO, you know, hundreds of project managers. And we need someone experienced to lead it. Yeah, that's fantastic. And I go and do that. I go and do that for, you know, two, three years or whatever it may be. And I love doing that. So my last one finished in May. The PMO had been built. So I went back into my other world of independence. Yeah, I mean, starting, I mean, shocking. You know, I was, my last trip, and I can't believe it, I can say this now, but my last trip was first week in May, first week in March this year. I was in Switzerland, and I was flying back, and I had no idea that that was the last flight I was going to get on.

Gast 1: And, you know, like all, you know, sensible business people, I have, you know, spreadsheets with projections and things on. I hate looking, I've got a graph right behind the camera here, and there's this horrible thing in April that goes boom, because corporate world just shut up shop, and they stopped. And conferences just said, no, we can't do this. Yeah. And it took a while for the world to recover. I think, I'm going to go back, I mean, quite a few years now, and really what, everything that I do now is built on this. So it was, I worked for a company, I'd worked for companies all my life, and I worked for this one organization for nearly 11 years. I mean, the company was taken over by IBM, and as often what happens is that, you know, the organization strips a lot of people out. They make the company as lean as possible. So I wasn't alone. I think I got rid of about 6% of the organization. I walked away with a nice paycheck. You know, I've been there a long time. And I had a great conversation with a sort of personal counselor. And this guy, I remember it was shocking to me, because we talked, and we talked. And then he said, Peter, I'm not going to get, I'm not going to help you get a job. You're going to get a job. Your network's going to get a job. He goes, but I want to ask you one question. He said, what happens next time?

Gast 1: What do you mean next time? It just happened to me. I'm coming to terms with this. I've never been unemployed before. And he goes, well, it's probably going to happen again. What are you going to do? What else can you do? And why do you fuck all your effort into one thing? And it was that that would trigger the, what else can I do? Well, I'm quite good at speaking, I suppose. I can write. And, you know, that created the basis of the lazy project manager. So, again, you know, what struck me in this particular period, when that, you know, my pipeline collapsed, the world was changing. I didn't know what was going to happen. Nobody was booking conferences. You know, I love speaking. I wasn't going anywhere. What else can I do? And I started converting everything to virtual, of course. That's one thing. I also started working with individuals on a coaching basis. A couple of PMOs, leaders I was helping as well. And I also moved into kind of the influencer role of working with a number of the tech companies and helping, actually, helping a tech startup company. So, I think what I'm trying to say here is that think about all the things you can do. And the risk in life now, I think, is just to have the one arrow, you know, the one capability, the one thing. That might work for some people. It didn't work for me. And I look back on that particular situation and go, the guy was right. He was a great, great counselor. He was, you know, he challenged me and said, well, it's going to happen again and you should be more prepared for it this time. And I think I have been. You know, my resilience, my network, my people, et cetera, have allowed me to keep going. You know, I'm not saying it's been the easiest year. Absolutely not. But, you know, you can create new things, new avenues, new opportunities and new connections.

Gast 2: But what kind of, to summarize what you have gone through, what would be the behaviors or characteristics that you think that are relevant to go through these kind of, I wouldn't say crisis, but changes of the environment, especially in the case where what happened is on your risk register. We are all professional project managers and 9-11 as well as this one. I mean, you could do risk assessments left, right, center, but this kind of stuff was, I think, on no risk register. What are the behaviors that are beneficial?

Gast 1: I think, you know, one of the big things for me is, you know, is to, you switch it from how it's not about you. You know, nothing really is about you in that sense. It's about, you know, my potential clients, the people who are going to pay my bills and book me to speak, to write, whatever it may be. What do they want in this situation? And I think that was the quick flip I did was, look, I'm working with, and I work with, you know, chapters from PMI and other organizations around the world. They were learning how to work in this new environment. So quickly by going, you know what, you still need people to speak. I can speak, I can even, I can, you know, it's kind of out of the box. I can host a Zoom, I can have an Eventbrite to set everything up, I can do the registration for you, I can speak, I can organize everything. You don't have to do anything. All you have to do is say, yes, you come and speak, and yes, you can speak on this thing, and you go market it. I'll market it as well. So by switching your view into the other person's, what can I do to help you, actually helps yourself, I think, in that sense. So that, I think, is a big, big sort of step I've taken this year of thinking about, okay, how can I help solve other people's problems and challenges to make it easier for them, but also, obviously, keep me working as well.

Gast 2: So especially for the self-employed of the listeners here, to step into the shoes of your client and to ask themselves, what is currently changing for them, for the clients, and how, with my capabilities, with my talents, with my substance, how could I be able to help them creating what they currently need and what they deserve?

Gast 1: Yeah, because they weren't clear. I mean, many, you know, everybody was trying to find what to do and how to do it in this current situation. So anything you've got to go with, I can solve, I can solve problems for you. That's what we do. You know, we solve problems. We solve challenges. We help people be more successful, individuals and organizations be more successful. So if, you know, the more that you can present the solution to them, minimizing the risk, etc., then the better it can be.

Gast 2: So listening from what you're saying, it probably has changed the way how you are currently working and how you have worked and for whom you are working and what you're doing. How do you think this will sustain? So is that something that is happening for you and has applied a change that you probably were striving for anyway or helped you to make a decision that was imminent and that has now been made by the market for you? And will you proceed with that path or are you looking forward when the time is going to be the old time?

Gast 1: I don't think the old times will come back. I think a version of the old times. You know, so fundamentally, you know, the thing I have most fun is going to conferences and speaking. You know, there's just there's something about being on stage. Someone described it to me the other day is actually, you know, people like myself, speakers, you know, we've gone from Broadway to television. So we used to be on stage, used to be the big show. It's always fantastic. Great to communicate with people. And now we're on screen. We've gone from Broadway to TV and there are behavioural differences in how you work. My view is that that will go back and it probably won't go back until the end of next year. It'll probably be the autumn conference season that will re-engage. I think they will therefore be very popular and big events. But I think the two worlds are going to sit in harmony now. I think organisations realise you can achieve so much more. I'm sure this is true of your own business world. You can achieve a lot through the kind of online virtual world. And I think for conferences, they're probably going to have both in the future. There's probably going to be a live format. And I can fully expect when I go to conferences to say, you know, your keynote is on this day and the following day you're going to be doing a virtual presentation to a wider audience. And I think those, you know, the two skills are still going to remain. And that's probably one of the big changes out there, I think.

Gast 2: And what we're seeing here in Germany, and we've seen it at the project management forum, which is facilitated and organised by the Gesellschaft for project management, which is the largest project management organisation here in Germany, even beyond PMI, because it's centristically just for Germany, is that the hybrid approach is being more focused on so that saying there is a live event currently very limited with a number of people. So you have the speakers there, you have podium discussions in that live event, you know, where people take off their mask when they when they come on stage. It could be happening in a pop-up facility, so where you just go in, pop up your setting and you do your conference there and disappear in all the or most of the participants are watching and participating from from the outside, which has created numerous of changes as well as opportunities to participate in settings, workshops and get-togethers like never before.

Gast 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So I think, you know, I think, you know, as humans, what we're going to do is we're going to take the best of what we learned about the new, we're going to apply what's still relevant from what the old, et cetera, and that will be where we go with this. The one thing I really, really miss, I must admit, I used to moan about it at the end, but, you know, I really miss the travel. I kind of miss that experience of going somewhere and that kind of, you know, that very personal interaction you can have. And it's that kind of thing, you know, when you when you speak at a conference, we're at a conference, you don't know who you're going to talk to at the coffee break, you know, which table you walk up to, who you're going to meet, you know, that kind of thing is harder to do in a virtual remote world. That kind of casual interaction is harder. But you can do other things. So it's not all negative. And, you know, I remain I remain positive for 2021. And, you know, I think it'll be OK. There's a lot of really exciting things happening in project management, you know, to start with. So, you know, regardless of what's going on here, you know, I'm doing a lot of work with in the area of artificial intelligence, project team performance management, analytics, that kind of stuff. So that carries on, that carries on regardless.

Gast 2: That's a good point that that you're making. I mean, the world is currently changing and reminding us what the human being distinguishes from from anybody else out there. Now, whether it's the animals or bacterias or whatsoever, we have the the ability to adjust ourselves to survive in new situations. And new environments. That's what what human beings are made for and what we are capable of. And we've shown this are many of us, at least over the last eight to nine months. There's still some that will be left behind, falling behind. That's, you know, every every innovation cycle. And we're currently in one of them has that as a fallout. However, we learned how to adapt ourselves and we learned how to to step out of our comfort zone, to learn, to adjust and apply new things because we need to. What do you think? And you just strived on that. What do you think is currently happening in the project management market, which is not the pandemic, but what changes the characteristics of projects we are managing as well as the topics or the content, the ingredients of projects that that we will have to manage in the future?

Gast 1: Yeah, I think I touched on AI, artificial intelligence. There's a Gartner report out and it talked about, he said that 80% of what a project manager does today will be replaced by artificial intelligence by 2030. In the next 10 years, 80% of what anybody who's a project manager is doing, gone. Right. So does that mean there will be no project managers? Of course not. I think what it means is that the AI is going to do the, you know, the boring stuff, the stuff we don't like doing as project managers, like reporting and data and analytics and state. Oh, God. I mean, some people like it. It's a necessary evil. That will be gone. And actually, AI will do it better because it will do the predictive analytics and all the algorithms and all the stuff it can do. But what I think fundamentally we'll do is it's just exciting because it's going to put project managers back focused on people. Projects are about people. We've spent so much time looking at process because it's just easier to do. Process has no emotions, no moods. You know, you can deal with process because you're just moving little diagrams or bits of paper around and that's it. People are much harder. But projects fundamentally are delivered by people. You know, at the end of a project, you've never heard, you know, the sponsor or the project manager thanking the methodology or thanking the escalation path or thanking the risk. None of that.

Gast 1: Oh, we couldn't have done it without the hybrid methodology. It's fantastic. Well, no, it's helped. But it's the people. They thank the people. So I think that's really exciting for project managers. They're going to have to change, really, really change. And the ones that are going to be really successful are the ones who really do have that affinity to people. So that's the first thing. And it's kind of linked to that. The other thing I'm personally very excited about, and it's because I am part of this tech startup organization, a company called Perflow, which is that they're doing AI in the world of project team performance, analytics, and management. So, you know, in the past as project managers, we've always tracked what people are doing, what tasks they've done, how they've completed, et cetera. But we've never really thought, how do you feel? You know, what is your center? What is your mood? What is your – what is the team spirit? And we know the Tuckman model of, you know, the forming, norming, storming, performing type thing that you go through. And project teams are very, very dynamic in that way. They're constantly disrupting because people come and go all the time. So if you have a great group of people and they have a brilliant team spirit, total collaboration, total trust, and you start measuring that through AI and analytics and all the rest of it and really drive that to the highest level, you're going to perform anything. You're going to overcome anything at all. So, you know, that's a very personal path I'm going on because I think that is so exciting. But it's all part of the bigger AI-empowered or AI-enabled project management world. Lots to come. Very, very exciting.

Gast 2: And I think that the current time is something where we really could learn that skill. And even if you think now currently is everything happening online and, you know, what about emotions online? As a speaker, and you must know that by heart, if you are able to grasp and capture the attention of the younger generation, whether it's the last years in school or even at the beginning of the university, if you're able to catch their attention, you're able to keep them involved during a workshop or during a speech, the message out of this is if you can handle them, you can handle any crowd. And I think this applies to what we are currently going through. If you're able to manage a team with that infinity, with that emotion, with that energy, and you're able to become a great leader that is still able to inspire people online, you can do it offline anyway. Is that something that you would support? I think so. I think so.

Gast 1: And again, I can't go back to it. You've just got to put a bit more effort into it. You know, I find, I must admit, I find running remote workshops more exhausting, personally, because I kind of have to even more. When you're in a room, you get energy from people. Even if you're having a bit of a dip mid-afternoon or day three of the workshop or whatever it is, someone will say something. Someone will challenge you. Someone will, two people might have a discussion or argument. Things happen, and I think in the virtual world, you've just got to give a little bit more. That's my personal. I don't know if you found the same thing. I finished them. I mean, they're obviously, they're shorter. I don't do full day remote. The maximum I do is four hours. I personally feel more drained at the end of them because I'm trying to give as much as possible and kind of deliver more, perhaps, than if I was in the room.

Gast 2: And I think I found it even harder at the beginning, like in March, April of the pandemic, people were not used to be online, especially the ones in organizations, and they haven't been used to switch their videos on, yeah, because they were, like, intimidated, looking into their living room, into their sleeping room, wherever they had their home office set up. And because of this, they shut down their videos. So you were even speaking. I did some speeches still in April and May, some workshops. I was speaking to 95% of a name. Okay. Even the name was, you know, like in disguise for some because they didn't want to show their name. It was in the early days where Zoom had this kind of situation where, you know, everybody could hack into a room or something like that. So they were scared to show their name and their picture. So you were speaking into nothing. And as you said, you know, the group is providing energy back, and you're benefiting from that kind of energy. So I totally support that. However, what we have learned is that emotions are able to be generated and to be initiated in online as well as in online. It's just that you have to create an environment that is safe, where people can feel safe, where they can open up. So you have to support this by different approaches. But once you've got that, and once you've got one participant that is opening up, the whole room opens up. Yeah. And it's just a fantastic experience that I would, you know, shout out. Everybody should create. What do you think?

Gast 1: Yeah, I do. I absolutely do. And I was kind of, you know, I was inspired because I thought back to the previous year. And I had some great trips in the previous year. And you know me, I like to do unusual, fun things when I'm on stage. So, you know, I was in Rio de Janeiro, 400 project managers. And I got them to do a Mexican wave. It was a lesson in kind of self-organization. Yeah. You know, there was no, it was a non-verbal. And we, you know, took a while to get them going. But eventually I got the idea. That was fun. Orlando, I got 300 project managers singing Let It Go from Frozen, which was all about the kind of freedom of social collaboration and decentralized governance. And in Budapest, again, I think about 300 project managers were all wearing clown noses, which I gave them while I was doing a lecture on sort of project management fun. So it's like people love that and they talk about it and they remember it. And people sent me pictures of like they've still got the clown nose or they've got videos of singing. How can you bring some of that into the kind of presentations? Because, you know, if they've been, if they've been organizations, they've been trying to replicate the physical conference. By the time it comes to you, and I've done a couple where I've been closing keynotes, you know, you know, people are tired. They're kind of bored a little bit and they need something. So I'm constantly trying to find ways to actually do that. And you can do a lot of, I use, I don't know if you've used it, I use Menti as one of those little online tools because you can create polls and quizzes and interactions and people use their mobile device to engage. It breaks barriers down. Things like that can, if you can't, compensate for the stuff that you can't do physically.

Gast 2: So what do you do to have those red noses in online meetings?

Gast 1: That's kind of hard now. It's kind of hard now. You know, the shipping alone costs a fortune. You know, I don't know. I'm waiting to come up with a brilliant idea around that one to kind of replicate it. I did one conference for an organization. Actually, this was a private business one. And what they did was they created a cocktail based on the Lazy Project Manager. It was the dinosaur, the brontosaurus cocktail. And they shipped out all, you know, they organized it. Obviously, they shipped out all the ingredients to the attendees. They can do their own. Yeah. So after I did my kind of keynote, they had a kind of happy hour and everybody was making their own cocktails. And, you know, you could put, it was designed so you, you know, if you wanted vodka, you could make it with vodka. If you wanted gin, you could make it with gin. It's up to you. But the fancy stuff, the umbrellas and the, you know, and that was really nice. They kind of created something that connected people in that way. So it can be done. Again, it just needs a little bit more thought, a little bit more preparation, a little bit more organization.

Gast 2: And I think we've just touched the surface. You know, if you remember like two years ago, we talked about the culture, we talked about time zones, we talked about that workshop teams are now diverse and that they're split across many countries and they're not on site anymore. And we talked about how to engage them. And I think what we have perceived over the last six to eight months has solved or has provided answers to some of these questions. And I'm really curious about what's going to happen. We see the first books on the market, how to transport or transform the offline into the online. And I'm sure as technology not just evolves, but people will make access to that kind of technology and it becomes easier for us as facilitators as well as participants.

Gast 1: Yeah, I think it's when the new normal becomes the normal in a sense of like this, well, we just play work, et cetera. I mean, a good example is that, you know, we're talking about this, you know, but my eldest son entered, he finished university and he entered the workplace, he joined a company, he's done nothing but work remotely from day one. And for him, it's like, well, yeah. Effectively, you know, when he was doing his master's, it was pretty much like that anyway. You know, most of it was remote. I mean, he went to the occasional lecture, but most of it was remote organised, self-organisation. So his experience, he's not even missed the stuff that we have experienced in having jobs and joining the company and stuff like that, because it's just, this is just his normal. And, you know, he does, you know, it's fine. He's quite happy.

Gast 2: Yeah, same for our kids. Our daughter is 17 years old. She's got learning groups online every day, every evening, every, you know, now and then she gets together with her learning mates and to go through this whole thing, the afternoon, learning stuff, preparing for the next day. And they just embrace it, right? And for us and our ages, you know, it takes a couple of months.

Gast 1: Well, I said to her, Adam, you know, it's actually, you haven't had a proper job until you've done a four-hour daily commute. Do it properly. Go on a train, go to London, come home in the evening, do that for two years, then you've got a proper job. But no, it won't be like that. It really won't be like that. And so many people, you know, I talk to people like myself, you know, speakers and stuff like that. And they're all saying, well, the things we used to do, the things we used to get on a plane to go to a meeting, to talk about an event and come back again for an hour and a half meeting, we're not going to do that again. Nobody's going to do it again. It makes no sense when you think about it. It felt glamorous. It felt great. And you felt you looked after, but it's not necessary. It really isn't necessary.

Gast 2: Yeah, you're absolutely right. So I'm glad that this kind of change happens because it will now shake up the organizations that have been limited and that limited themselves. And now they have to go through that and to stay successful or even survive. So I'm sure we are not going to turn back the time. But as you said, the new normal becomes the normal. So looking into the future, I can't imagine Peter without a project, right? The projectless manager was the last 21-day initiative, at least that I was able to witness and see from the outside. What's coming next for Peter?

Gast 1: Well, I mean, I still like some work. So, you know, any opportunities out there is always really good. Two books, just signed the contracts, one on AI and project management, one on project team performance. That is the topics I'm talking about. Working with that tech startup company, working with a number of tech tool providers with, you know, providing kind of influencer guidance, et cetera. A bit of a moan with boast. I won PMO Influencer of the Year. Last month, which was fantastic. Thank you. I've only got one year to talk about it. It's like, you know, I'm going to throw it out there every chance I can. And I'm in early stages with a couple of organizations talking about some kind of sort of PMO type of, not quite sure, but there's training courses for PMOs and PMO leaders, but it's not really a mentoring, coaching, long-term program. So just some early ideas. I don't, you know, most of it I don't know. And fingers crossed, I get to go somewhere interesting in 2021.

Gast 2: And I think this is also something that you're touching on, where we learned a lot from the pandemic. The different elements that make success or that have, that create success or at least some breakthroughs for teams, for projects, where you combine different elements, whether it's the physical meeting, whether it's online training, whether it's the coaching element where you coach one-on-one. And especially to support organizations in a change, I think that this consistent, you know, I'll be there for three, four, five days a week, and I'll be present and I work on the stuff that's been given me. And I'm just the external workforce. I think there is so much potential, especially from what we have learned over the last couple of months, to apply, especially in your world as a consultant or as an influencer for the organizations, to apply for them and take them on a path to the next level.

Gast 1: Yeah, and I think any, you know, any future proposal for any organization is just going to be, it's going to be a hybrid offering.

Gast 2: Yeah, absolutely.

Gast 1: You know, it might be all virtual, but I think in, you know, I think, you know, six months into next year, it's probably going to be a combination of partial physical and partial virtual. Why waste time and why waste cost if you don't need to? Yeah.

Gast 2: All right. Thanks, Peter. We're almost at the end. And thanks for giving a little bit or providing a little bit of your perspective on what has happened over the last couple of months, giving some insights, what has happened to your business model and what's coming in the future. I think everybody who's listening to this is looking forward to those new book projects as your book projects always are fun. They have great insights. They provide a new perspective and they are transformational as well as challenging. So I really love that. I really love your style. What's your message to the project managers out there?

Gast 1: Get ready for the future. Get ready for a new world. I mean, it's, you know, the heart of it is going to be this thing. It's changed the new normal, but then the AI empowered world, it is going to fundamentally change. And so don't fight it, embrace it, learn about it, talk about it. And yeah, get to grips with it and focus on the people.

Gast 2: Thank you. And I think you're touching on those new topics of your two new books, which is fantastic. So we're looking forward to the insights of that book. If somebody would like to get in touch with you and would like to maybe engage with you or even participate in some of the formats you are facilitating nowadays, how could they do that?

Gast 1: A couple of ways. I'm on LinkedIn. So you can come and find me on LinkedIn, connect to me on LinkedIn or my website, www.thelazyprojectmanager.com. Nice and easy.

Gast 2: Most famous book. So thank you very much, Peter. Thanks for the insights. And I'm looking forward to the next podcast we might be doing in six or 12 months time to see what has happened and what became reality and where we're at in the whole world. Thank you very much, Peter.

Bye.

Gast 2: Bye-bye.