Deep Dive mit Torsten Koerting — Folge 063
Von großen Zielen, kleinen Schritten und Teamwork - Interview mit John Stepper
2021-03-05

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Quelle: https://torstenkoerting.com/podcast/063-von-grossen-zielen-kleinen-schritten-und-teamwork-interview-mit-john-stepper

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Torsten J. Koerting: Hallo und ein herzliches Willkommen zum Umsetzungsgiganten-Podcast und auch heute mit einem Interviewpartner, der eine Bewegung in der Welt ausgelöst hat. Eine Bewegung, die 2014 in New York ihren Ursprung hatte und speziell in Zeiten wie diesen, wo wir Menschen im Lockdown sind, wo wir nur über Videokonferenzen und unterschiedliche Tools in Beziehungen gehen können. Es ermöglicht eine kleine Gruppe von Menschen, vier bis fünf, über einen Zeitraum von zwölf Wochen, gepaart mit einem sehr wirksamen und inspirierenden und rahmenhaltenden Wertesystem, einen kleinen oder auch einen größeren Schritt nach vorne zu kommen. Jemand, der aus einem Corporate-Umfeld, der in Enterprises, in großen Unternehmen gearbeitet hat und etwas dort erleben durfte, wo er mit seiner Bewegung und seiner Methodik und mit seinem Ansatz sozusagen einen Gegenpol gebildet hat. Nämlich die Kommunikation in Unternehmen als auch untereinander maßgeblich so zu optimieren und zu stärken und ein Umfeld zu schaffen, in dem es möglich ist, Vertrauen untereinander zu gewinnen, in dem es möglich ist, seine Essenz, seine Substanz und seine Fähigkeiten einzubringen, Wertschätzung zu erfahren und gleichzeitig bei der Unterstützung anderer selbst noch diesen einen kleinen Schritt vorwärts zu machen. Die Rede ist von Working Out Loud, eine Herangehensweise, die sich mittlerweile über die Welt verteilt hat, eine Bewegung, die 2014 ihren Ursprung hatte und heute habe ich den Urheber, den Autor, den Mitbegründer dieser Herangehensweise hier bei mir im Podcast-Interview. Er ist 56 Jahre, hat fünf Kinder und seither in New York und wir haben selbst in dem Interview festgestellt, dass wir zur gemeinsamen Zeit, im ähnlichen Zeitraum bei einem großen deutschen Bankunternehmen in New York arbeiten durften und diese Zeit des Umbruchs auch in diesem Haus miterleben durften und wir aus unterschiedlichen Kulturkreisen doch Ähnliches haben wahrnehmen dürfen. Er ist jemand, der mittlerweile, nachdem sieben Jahre vergangen sind, auch in einer neuen Phase des Lebens eintritt und deutlich balancierter, ausbalancierter und angekommen wirkt und jemand, der mit uns im Rahmen dieses Interviews seine Schritte zu seinem Erfolg, der sicherlich nicht geplant war, skizziert und uns mitnimmt auf eine Reise, die ein Modell und eine Herangehensweise hervorgebracht hat, die Millionen von Menschen und deren Leben nachhaltig verändert hat. Wir werden auch auf den Ursprung gehen, was macht Teams außergewöhnlich? Was macht aus Fremden ein Team innerhalb eines kurzen Zeitraums in einem Umfeld, in dem sie Vertrauen zueinander fassen können und sich öffnen kommen, um gemeinsam eine Weiterentwicklung zu erfahren? Und wir werden auf den Grund gehen, wie auch seine Lebensphasen einer Veränderung unterlagen und wie er nicht nur Erfolg und seine Vision als solche definiert, sondern auch für sich die kritischen Erfolgsfaktoren, die dazu geführt haben, sowohl zu der Wahrnehmung, zu der Achtsamkeit, als auch dann zu dieser Bewegung, die wir mittlerweile überall in der Welt erleben dürfen. Die Rede ist von John Stepper, der Autor und Mitbegründer von Working Out Loud und ich freue mich riesig, ihn heute hier im Podcast-Interview zu haben. Viel Spaß!

Torsten J. Koerting: Also zu erfahren, was denn die jungen Menschen bewegt.

Gast: You're really making me think with these questions. It's wonderful.

Torsten J. Koerting: John, welcome to the show.

Gast: It's great to see you. You know, before we started, you mentioned that we had been in the same place at the same time. And it wouldn't surprise me if 22 years ago we crossed paths before.

Torsten J. Koerting: It's unbelievable, isn't it? And now we're crossing paths again as part of this podcast. And you're very well known in Germany. And as I mentioned in the introduction, you've created a movement. You've created a movement with an approach as well as a platform that lets people collaborate for a certain period of time to reach specific goals. And maybe let's start off with what that movement and the approach, maybe how that got together as well as maybe explain it in solvable terms, what that approach is and what idea is behind that.

Gast: So, you know, it's funny. I've been doing this for a while and my wife would still say, you know, you still can't describe what it is in an elevator pitch. But what the point is and what I tried to do as I developed this method was, could I create an environment where people could make the most of all they had to offer, but to do so in a psychologically safe space where there's no judgment, no competition, with small steps over time so that it was deliberate practice. They would try something, get feedback, try another something, get feedback. And could I create this environment, this space where I could give people the permission, the confidence, the structure so that they could take these steps, make more of all they had to offer, and then use that as a platform to do other things. So I had to apply to other goals. So that's what working out loud is. It is a way to make the most of what you have to offer. And what that means for you, it doesn't have to be a big thing. It's really personal. But you do it together with other people, three or four other people, in one hour a week, over 12 weeks, small steps over time that help you build relationships, develop your skills, make the most of what you have to offer.

Torsten J. Koerting: You said you couldn't fit it into an elevator pitch. That's a long, that's a very tall building. It's a long, but you're based in New York. We still have high buildings there and long elevator trips. So thankfully, you're able to do this a couple of times, which is great. Looking at your background, John, you're from an enterprise environment. We just said, you know, we crossed paths decades ago in New York, working for a large global organization, a large global bank these days. And to come up with that kind of concept feels maybe a little bit, I wouldn't say unlogical, but... Countercultural? Yeah, countercultural to what you have perceived, not just over a couple of years, but almost over decades. So how did that whole idea came up within you, John?

Gast: So what had happened, having worked in big companies, my whole life now, probably 30 years, is that there was a downturn in my career, right? So you get a reorganization or a budget cut or a performance review, like something almost anyone can relate to. And, you know, for a while, things had been going quite well until they weren't. And it struck me that, oh, I was just lucky. Like, I was playing career roulette, but all it takes is for somebody to draw different lines on the org chart and instead of being a hero, I'm the opposite. Or it takes somebody in some room somewhere to cut a budget and my job's gone. So that's a terrible way to live. And I would see that around me. So it wasn't just, you know, poor me. It was people would have a performance review and, you know, a woman would be in tears because her former boss left and the new boss didn't. He already had his favorites. So in the ratings curve, she lost.

Gast: And it just struck me, this is a terrible waste, right? It's suffering for individuals, but it's also a terrible waste of collective potential as well. And so I looked for a way, born out of my own need first, and then for other people. Well, what's a way that we could change the odds a little bit? Not wait for the new CEO, not cross your fingers to be picked the next time, but is there something that I could do now that would gain me access to other people, knowledge, opportunities, even just feeling better about my day-to-day? Is there something that I could do that's in my control? And Working Out Loud was born out of that. What's a way that I could do that? And it evolved over time. So maybe that was, you know, 2010, 2011. And over time, it evolved so that it was easier to spread, easier to try across cultures. And it's kind of taken on a life of its own.

Torsten J. Koerting: And looking back again at those days, and we'll dive into the approach a little bit further later on, looking back at those days when you came up with that movement and Working Out Loud, there have been other concepts around like masterminds and people were, especially in those internet hypes, collaborating in different ways. What made you certain and how did you differentiate Working Out Loud in a particular way that it had an opportunity to stand beside the other approaches?

Gast: Nothing made me certain. I'm still not certain. What I did was, I mean, I worked out loud about Working Out Loud. So I wrote the first version of Guides. It was 2014. And I put them on the internet. And so a few people used them. And I got feedback. And I iterated. And I kept evolving and adapting them. I had no intention back then about how many people had used them, that it would be a product or a business or whatever it would be. It was simply, I made something. It was helpful for me. I helped a few people in my company. And now here's something. Maybe it'll help you too. That was the way it was originally offered. What makes it different, and it took me a long time actually to figure this out. So there are circle guides. There are exercises every week. So a structured agenda that people follow. And in a circle, you each have your own goal. It's not a team thing. You each have your own goal. And over the 12 weeks, you take steps and build relationships related to that goal. But the way you do it is very human.

Gast: You make these small contributions over time that build trust and relatedness and lead to cooperation, interaction, collaboration. But it also leads to goodwill. So what I've realized over time is that although people may like a given exercise in a given week, it's not some magic words that I've said in one of these circle guides. It's the feeling that happens between these four or five people in a circle. It's the sense that, hey, even with a group of strangers, I can be myself in a safe space. I have something to offer. Like I matter. And people listen to me. There's this giving and receiving that happens in this circle. That's the magic. So there are, like you said, many peer coaching methods, many kinds of circles and support groups. And there's a place for all of them. It's great. What this does, though, this giving and receiving between people over time leads to a sense of connection, trust, and relatedness that turns out to be very powerful and that people can carry with them beyond their circle to their network, to their company, to the planet. And that's why it's not just a method. They tell their friends, because it's that, like that old quote, they may not remember what you said or what you did, but they will remember how you made them feel. And it's that feeling that encourages people to tell their friends and spread working out loud.

Torsten J. Koerting: Which is, as you said at the beginning, something that is counter-cultural, right? Yeah, they weren't big fans of this at work. I would say so, but, you know, looking back at the enterprises you have worked in, 2014, coming up with that initial approach and still working in an enterprise and testing it there, what still made you, and you said you weren't certain and you're still not certain, what made you persevere as well as being confident that you're on the right path, especially as you tested it in an environment where feelings, where being relevant and having a cause in what you're doing is probably not the first thought that you're having in these kind of organizations.

Gast: Well, so, in the beginning, it was, the emphasis of working out loud was on the loud part. Like, oh, this is knowledge sharing. I will make I will make my work visible and at the time, 2010, 2011, I had, you know, social networks are coming into the fore, they're being used a bit more in companies, so I introduced a social network into the bank and that became my job. And so, what was obvious is, hey, if we could increase the connectivity across silos, if we could increase knowledge sharing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, things we've been talking about forever. But those were, those were well-recognized business problems, so I said, well, that's what we'll do and that's what, what I'll help with this social, with this technology and a certain way of sharing what we know. And that's how it started. that was where the original emphasis was. But over time, it was clear to me, and I know you've had some things to do with intranets before, that is not enough to get people to do anything. Like, that's not enough of a motivator that knowledge sharing is good, so I'm going to take the time and, and do that, make my work visible. And so, after that original start, it, there was an increased focus on people. And on us and social interactions between people that was still purposeful, right, that was still had benefits for the company or organization that was still related to making your work visible, but your visible work was just one of many possible contributions you could make. And it was, it was the connections between people that was the real engine and that would pay even a much greater return on any investment than, than just the occasional contribution about your knowledge.

Torsten J. Koerting: So, looking, looking at how you perceive teams, how you looked at how an environment like corporates is working with each other, like you, you spoke about the silos, you, you spoke about the interests of sharing knowledge, which sometimes is not a given. what has led to the approach you are taking as part of working out loud? Was your experience, what does a team need to become successful first, or was it something that you have learned by introducing maybe the first minimal viable product of that approach?

Gast: I see we read the same books. It was the second one. So, like, this was a, this was more of a, kind of a selfish need, which was, man, my career is going down, it's not, I'm kind of miserable, I'm missing something, and I have to show up to this place every day, and go to my office and sit in front of Outlook and, you know, do the work, and, I mean, I wasn't in a coal mine, so it's not a terrible problem, but it just, like, boy, is this it? And I'm going to do this for the next 20 years? Whew, this is not great. So, but even, you know, no matter what my work day or where I work week was like, what I was experiencing myself was that when I put something out there, when I tried to contribute something on this social internet, and I would have some people, often people I did not know, respond like a little spark of joy, a little positive reinforcement, and they're like, oh, that was nice. So, over time, I realized that those contributions, sometimes they were small, sometimes they were things I learned, what I was doing, why, what mistakes I made, sometimes it was just attention for somebody else or credit for somebody else. that made it possible to make connections, to earn me access to people and content and opportunities that I never would have made otherwise. And so that, like I said, same job, same office, same inbox, but I tilted the odds a little bit and I shifted my portfolio a little bit and I was hungry for more of that. so that's what made me persevere. Not to make the bank a better bank, not to make teams better, not some abstract goal, but I wanted that feeling and I wanted more of it and over time, I wanted to see if I could help other people get that feeling too because I felt everybody deserves that.

Torsten J. Koerting: So talking so much about working out loud, maybe for the listeners that do not have such an insight as the two of you and you much, much deeper than I do, could you explain the approach? 12 steps, there is a context of values and other approaches that make that approach now in our days not just an approach that is used by many but also a movement that with a new platform we're going to talk about at the end you're fostering to make it even bigger or provide a platform to many to get access to one of another. Could you explain what are the key elements of it? maybe in more detail.

Gast: Okay. So the best way to do that maybe is just a simple story. Great. So this woman wrote to me her name is Maria Fernanda and she'd come from Mexico she started a new job at a company in the UK in March and she arrives in the UK new country new company new language and a week later she's in lockdown and she's lost. she's literally disconnected and she said she was so uncertain of herself and of this situation that she'd be on a call like this and she would tremble just to take herself off mute like what's the right thing to do? What's safe to do? Somebody at the company says oh why don't you try working out loud circle? So she does she's paired with four other people she does not know in her company in other cities and week one she picks a goal which is simply can I know more people who do what I do with this company? And she starts to list a few people she knows very few names some of the other people in the circle suggest some that's it week two she's going to offer a contribution to those people but what would she offer? Well they have an internet it's 2020 2021 now so she actively starts searching for them learning how to use the company's tools to find people to interact with them in some small way which could be as simple as showing appreciation for something that they've done like a like button or a follow or something like that on their social internet by week four she's sharing a useful resource by week six she's updating her profile on the company internet but also on LinkedIn by weeks eight nine ten she's just sharing some more of her experience both related to work but also outside of work so here's experience with the onboarding program experience in changing countries how she's dealing with the pandemic not to be popular not to show that she's awesome not to build a personal brand but contributions that could be helpful to other people like her and over the 12 weeks what happens is she's got these four other people like instant network psychologically safe space where she feels connected and supported she's also more confident she's learned how to use the company's tools to offer more of herself what she knows what she does what she needs to know how to navigate the company and now after these 12 weeks she's got to set skills and habits that she could apply to any goal that's how it works does that make sense to you

Torsten J. Koerting: it does it does absolutely and the question that I'm asking is that what has made you certain or confident that you mentioned that the feelings that that approach creates right that you start feeling yourself that you start feeling the others that the context that this environment creates without you as a host without you as somebody giving more than the guiding principles as part of the the method or the approach that people feel and start feeling

Gast: so it it was only I'd say in the last year or two that I had enough feedback that I would I don't know if confident quite captures it but I I get a delicious amount of feedback from people who say you don't know me in fact we don't even speak the single language but this thing really helped me and here's how and so when I heard enough of that from people in different countries cultures companies contexts that said okay it still may not be for everybody but nothing is but this is is helping enough people that this this recipe of small steps practiced over time to develop a set of skills and habits in a psychologically safe space that that recipe is extremely practical and useful for developing new skills and habits and that's what led that's what working out loud is but then that's what led to applying that same formula so to speak to other behaviors and skills so we have a method now specifically for teams we have a method for mindfulness and we have another method that I'm working on for for purpose for dealing with all of the busyness of work and life and making space for work that's more meaningful for you

Torsten J. Koerting: what would you what would you recommend or shout out to the ones that are experts in a field where emotions are the core driver where getting access to your emotions is the core value proposition which is a hard to sell proposition because from what I seeing and hearing is that the world needs that desperately but nobody is has the guts to acknowledge that what would you what would you recommend to those ones to get their product to get their service out to the market where this is one of the core elements because where I'm coming from John is if you would I wouldn't say market but communicate working out loud as an approach where you start feeling yourself where you feel that you matter you feel the others as part of the team you know I have a hallucination how potential users would be receptive for that or not

Gast: yeah that's a great question and I've certainly done that in the times so here's what I do which is because the risk of something like working out loud is that you are preaching to the choir so to speak that oh yes social intranets or social media or social in general like great we sharing is caring et cetera et cetera and that's not bad but it's limiting right so you're going to attract only certain kinds of people and my goal was that I want to be able to reach everybody at least have the chance of doing that so like well how do you do that and so two things one I avoid I avoid certain kind of language in the circle guides and as we frame it but two is we we've made it very work friendly so my idea and I guess because I came from working in a big company was instead of preaching to people who in these big places that life should be different or their approach should be different what if I could actually reach them in the workplace as part of their job and then instead of fighting against the workplace I'm using the machine to scale to reach people so as an example at Bosch 400,000 people I don't want to just have the 400 who love social internets or believe in you know in peace and love I want it to be part of the onboarding program where they're going to hire tens of thousands of people every year or part of the talent development program or part of the cultural transformation program of which there are many and so on and so what we do in part is you know the movement that you describe is generally made up of individuals who are craving something more from work and life but then there's a business that says look we can package this and integrate it into existing programs where business challenges are recognized where there are there's already funding and a set of people and an audience and all of that and this can help them and so the latest example is at Vodafone you know they want to help sales people understand or experience social selling techniques perfect right is that working out loud well the method is about relationships and influence and contributions so yeah but we're not preaching working out loud to sales people we're saying here's this problem that management recognizes here's one approach that might help you and then we offer it as an option for them we're not forcing them so that's what we do with programs like onboarding and talent but also with with specific business goals like this and that's the way we're not just some fringe movement that's the way that we can leverage these big companies to reach many many more people

Torsten J. Koerting: what do you think makes the difference what makes the difference that working out loud is being accepted in these kind of organizations that you have just mentioned in a phase where people that join that organization are primed they start to feel the organization they start to have their first insights where their environment and their beliefs are being crafted to set them up for success or failure at the end so what do you think is the core element that makes the difference that working out loud is being chosen as one of the approaches to do this

Gast: so I think there's a few that come immediately to mind one is it's easy to try right so I purposely made it so that if you're just a few people you could start for free and you don't need a coach or guru or expert so it's easy to try two it's generally not sold by me so to speak it's sold by people who've been through it themselves and have that feeling that we talked about so imagine if you're an XYZ company in Germany it's much more effective that Bettina Schmidt says I believe and I'm going to find the head of HR who's going to integrate this and if I tried to do that or you tried to do it and then the third is and this is more recent learning if it's easily integrated into something that they're already doing people are looking for virtual training right now they're looking for ways for people to collaborate and cooperate I've got a method for you right and one that you don't have to force on people but that they're intrinsically motivated to try and spread those three things I think have made it easier and more practical to spread inside companies than some other things

Torsten J. Koerting: Apple just or Apple might release their highest quarterly earnings in a couple of days and the reason for that is what the investors and the analysts say is that they are set up for success for nowadays especially over the last year where people are working from home where they need an environment to collaborate with each other online with reliable technology and which is still inspiring even if you sit 12 hours in front of these machines looking into other people's faces have

have

Torsten J. Koerting: you seen like a pickup or even a far more intense usage of the approach you're sharing over the last 12 months

Gast: what what I've seen is that it's more more relevant more easily accepted than ever before yes and what I think will and I think that will continue because you know such a novella CEO of Microsoft said be on the lookout for what's been lost and this is from the guy who sells Microsoft teams right so it's great that we have these tools and yes remote working works but something's missing and so if we can do anything to preserve this sense of human connection this giving and receiving not just about the meeting but beyond that and not just synchronously like right now but asynchronously over time different channels then that would help so yeah I think I don't know if we're going to be like Apple but there's a greater appetite so to speak for trying working out loud and for companies adopting it in some formal way

Torsten J. Koerting: yeah you've got that IT background right from what I'm knowing from you that is true I studied computer science back though you know before before the internet so that yeah but that's great because the ones that the generation after the internet they don't know the sources the root cause the foundation of all of that today yes exactly so you know the Aussie the Aussie layer model yeah exactly do you think that that working out loud is adding that that layer to what's currently needed and what's required in a global world as well as in a world where people sit in lockdowns for weeks months and hopefully not years to have that layer which adds in a context an environment where they can feel safe where they can open up and reach goals where the technology and Zoom and whatever is out there teams you spoke about becomes more of a an enabler rather than the tool that you are using as a fool

Gast: sure yeah that's a great way to think of it which is that this is the tools are infrastructure and then they're neither good or bad they're just they're infrastructure and I'm glad we have them and then on top of it is this kind of very human layer which to your point gives you a structure and approach to how to interact with people in a meaningful way that builds trust and relatedness using this underlying infrastructure it's not just that infrastructure so you could do this in person you can do it over email but this infrastructure allows you to reach more people and offer a wider range of gifts in different ways so it's powerful but it's a means it's not the goal

Torsten J. Koerting: and it's far more than just having an agenda right and having like documents that are pre-prepared as well as a result out of a meeting that has been taken away towards whatever

Gast: right you know we did this when when I created working out for teams I was with Katarina Krentz and Monica Struzak at Bosch what they said is how do we take a group of strangers and turn them into a team and that's in a sense what working out loud is but specifically for teams it's can we foster this exchange of signals 差 between people we are social animals can we foster this exchange of signals that builds trust over time that's how we take a group of strangers and make them feel something that leads to greater cooperation or support or other and now you know now that we've done this for so long and have multiple methods this is what I'll be doing kind of for the rest of my lives is trying to make more of these kinds of things but also to reach more people

Torsten J. Koerting: I think that's a great transition to another question that is on top of my mind when you started 2014 with that approach and you published your first minimal viable product within the organization that you worked for as an employee in those days gazillions of books have written about what makes the team successful right what is required to build championship teams and for years since 2013 I share the story of the America's Cup in the San Francisco Bay where you know the greatest catch-up in sports history has been achieved by Larry Ellison and his sailing team trailing by one to eight and then winning the whole thing nine to eight and outstanding one and a half year one and a half weeks effort and to analyze this in a way what made the difference yeah and Jimmy Spittel who was the skipper for the US team he said New Zealand had a team of champions but we had a championship team and you're talking about building within 12 weeks and just with a couple of touch points on a weekly basis and some other topics or some other part of that context we're going to talk about in a second creating a team that is emotional connected from strangers what are from your perspective and out of your experience over the last six to seven years doing that stuff and years before where this whole thing got mongled in your head what are the elements that are required to build a championship team out of strangers and how they make a difference in working out loud

Gast: so I'm going to be somewhat allergic to the idea that we're going to make championship teams just because to your point there's so many books and insights and inspiring stories and yet man it's really hard to replicate so yep Chicago Bulls you know pick your sports team pick your your company team so I don't try to do that or I don't aspire to do that it's great if you can and what I try to do instead is is to create an environment where you can build trust without judgment or shame and that turns out not just to be good for us as human beings like that is an ideal environment for us to perform in a certain way but if you look at let's say Google's research the Aristotle project on effective teams you know the number one factor was psychological safety and okay so I'm going to work on that does that make you a championship team maybe or maybe just makes it so that work doesn't suck so that you're not mean so that people aren't constantly monitoring status within and outside of the team so that you're actually helpful or wouldn't it be nice if we had each of us knew what would help us perform well and we got the most of all we had to offer both individually and collectively how about that like I'll take that and so maybe a way to put it would be that I think the kinds of exercises we do the kind of experiences we have in the different work out methods it's less about making you into something that you're not and it's more about if you will disarming the dysfunctions of a team to make it so that we could each make the most of what we have to offer in an empathetic non judgmental cooperative effective way and that would be great a great outcome and if some of them go on to become champions terrific but if we move the needle a little bit to make work more effective as well as more fulfilling if you will then I think we'll have done good work

Torsten J. Koerting: it sounds easy but I guess it's not what are the elements that you put in to create that environment of trust and to make that happen what you describe

Gast: so it's a guided mastery program which means that these steps build on each other over time and underpinning it are kind of a few core ideas from from psychology from neuroscience from evolutionary science which is one intrinsically what motivates us is a sense of control competence and connection these are basic intrinsic needs that we have so we're trying to fill those needs in these 12 steps Daniel Pink wrote a great book called Drive which popularized self determination theory so we know more now about what motivates people intrinsically and I tried to bake those steps into the guide what would give us what would fulfill these needs that I have a sense a perception of a bit more control competence and connection and then between the group it's an exchange of signals so it's this sense of this giving and receiving I've mentioned before that you I share a weakness of mine and you listen that's an exchange of signals and that says I can trust you more and then you're more willing to do it the next time so those two key concepts if we will this development of self efficacy self determination alongside with this exchange of signals between us as social animals those are the two things that underpin the 12 weeks that make it you said it's not easy it may not be easy but it's very natural it feels very human because it's how we're designed and I've tried to take advantage of that in these methods what

Torsten J. Koerting: have been some outcomes that you have heard about and listened to you you spoke about Maria who had her breakthrough during lockdown using it and spreading her methods intentionally what have been like outcomes that you heard of that made an impact to you to your feeling and made you I wouldn't say proud but you know fulfilling that you have created something that made a difference

Gast: so right your mileage may vary as we say like what the benefits are look for some people it's hey this changed my life I changed my job I took on this project I never thought I would before I met people I never thought I would great for other people they just need a subtle shift they're in the same job they're doing the same thing but deep down they know you know what I feel a bit better about who I am what I have to offer and how I can do that with some other people small shift what makes me what makes me get up in the morning is not necessarily the biggest goals or the biggest changes I really what inspires me to do this is when somebody says thank you I feel more confident and comfortable with myself that I could take a step whatever that step is for them it doesn't have to be a huge leap if it is great but if for that person it's just a small step like you know taking yourself off mute like great so if I can help people feel more comfortable and confident with their authentic selves so that they can contribute and make a difference in the world whatever that difference is for them that those are the stories that make me feel good about what I do and inspire me to do more of it

Torsten J. Koerting: so it's not the landmarks the big peaks the outstanding whatever kind

Gast: of

Torsten J. Koerting: I

Gast: don't like I almost don't like those stories because then it's great that Elon Musk is the richest man in the world and he's going to go to Mars but I'm not Elon Musk right so it puts a distance between you and most people and I don't want working out loud to just be for the outliers I want anybody to say no matter where you are we're doing something for nurses now in hospitals where there are no computers and it's just can we help them get a bit more out of their day and feel better about it it's good for them good for the hospital good for the patients like it's the everyday stories because you help one person improve a thousand percent that's great if you help millions of people improve we're

Torsten J. Koerting: good friends with Martin Fry I don't know whether you heard about him he lives in Salt Lake in Utah and he's he's how do you say documented in the Guinness book of records because he climbed the seven summits but 400 others have done it before him but he also sailed the seven seas so he's the one in mankind that has done this and he's been to the North Pole to the South Pole whatsoever right and when he's on stage in the US he talks about the Everest he talks about crossing the Atlantic in a rowing boat and you know all these stories and of course he's able to connect that with certain learnings and approaches and it's very inspiring however people sit in there and they think why should I climb Everest right why you know that's not me as you said I'm not Elon Musk you know he should go to Mars if he wants to and make us a multi-planet species it's his vision it's not mine I can step into that vision and apply for a job at SpaceX or just do my little thing and be a successful and fulfilled mother and he closes this speech and I like that turning point he closes that speech with a question to the audience and he asked the audience so what's your Everest is that something where you see your approach fit in the tiny small little steps that sometimes in real life might feel like an Everest

Gast: yes and there's this phrase in the circle guides about touching the treadmill where you know we all have these big ambitious goals but they're so big that they tend to trigger the defense mechanisms in our head and so we avoid them and so the toughest step tends to be the first one and so very often what the circle guides do is they just break down whatever it is you're trying to do into some small step lots of books about this atomic habits tiny habits Lao Tzu you know the first journey of 600 miles begins with a single step like this is not new but what I try to do with people is to not talk about moon shots or mountains but to talk about simple everyday actions that can lead to other simple everyday actions and so on and so on and if you could do that in this nurturing environment so that when it's over you could keep doing right because you've done it enough that self determination self efficacy you've got that confidence that you're much more likely to make this a sustainable practice and approach that's what I hope to offer

Torsten J. Koerting: and I think you're a great role model in doing this you started with a small simple step 2014 putting the approach into an environment where it might be least accepted and persevered to make it what it's been perceived as today what has been from your perspective like the tipping point I think there are so many people out there that have a great heart that have a great inspiration that would like to apply that small little ding in the universe and they come up with new concepts they have great ideas impulses they put it together but it doesn't take off what has been your tipping point for working out loud how did you perceive it where you said wow where you had this eye open emoji you said whoa what's happening here

Gast: I there were a couple but I so I remember one day in particular I'm sitting I'm at BMW and I'm in a room of 600 people and there's working out on the walls and there's a simultaneous translation because the whole thing is in German and I'm and I'm thinking to myself wow I made it right like this is going to be huge and then it wasn't and then you know nothing magical happened I dusted myself off and I just kept taking step by step what what where I get energy from or confidence from is from the people in my network I mentioned this morning I was talking to Sabine in Berlin the other day was Katarina Kranz from Bosch who's in Humber Lukas and Stuttgart like whether it's people I work with closely or people in the community that's where I draw inspiration and energy from and it's I feel it's not there's no one peak there's no one aha moment it's a more sustainable long term journey that I'm on and I've grown very comfortable with that last week you may have come across it it's called the Frauenstarken movement have you heard of them so Katarina Kranz has inspired 3,000 plus German women and men to work out and they've got 670 circles at the same time and I'm on the phone with them and I'm thinking this is taking on a life of its own and so that was one of those moments that says yes we're doing work that's worthwhile and it's working but I don't so much celebrate it as use that to say okay now what can we do next so

Torsten J. Koerting: it's more that continuous movement the compounded effect where that's right the actions that you take the next day build on the results of the actions you take today and have taken so far

Gast: and just keep on walking and and you know you mentioned minimum viable product earlier what why I like I have that image in my head it may not be as exciting as the big hockey stick growth or the great achievement but it means that well when something doesn't work okay again you dust yourself off you get up and it's just another you keep going and I find that that's much more accessible as an approach and more sustainable for most people that you do what you can from where you are on a given day and then you look around see what happened you learn from that and then you take another step the next day and if you could do that with the support and positive exchange with other people it could take you to some nice places

Torsten J. Koerting: Reinhold Messner who is I would say an inspirational source for many activities we do here he talks about the phases in life and his phases are like seven years approximately where he climbed the highest mountains where he crossed the deserts whether it's the ice deserts or sand deserts he built seven fantastic mountain museums in Austria and South Tyrol which is Italy to tell the story of alpinism and mountaineering and now he's more in the phase of being or focusing on sustainability right in his castle he's got that mountain side where he put everything to feed families many families right and all self self contained and his phases in life are having a vision or a vision that's bigger than himself and looking at your life at this stage as you started 2014 putting that first set of approach of what became working out loud out there and looking at the time frame it's like seven years since then how has working out loud changed your life you stepped outside of an enterprise two years later you resigned you founded Ikigai let's be clear which

Gast: you

Torsten J. Koerting: know when we're looking back things are happening for us not to us right you realize that at that moment very quickly and probably being glad that two years ago you put that small little spark out there how has your life changed since then and do you feel that maybe with corona or whatever kind of incident or it's just seven years or you're at another crossroad for you and yourself

Gast: you're really making me think with these questions it's wonderful yeah I do feel that way so after so after what's changed is that I am now comfortable being self directed like for a long time for my whole life I would show up to a place and you're kind of told what to do you know largely like where to sit and who to work with and what outputs there are and so on and now I don't and at first you're like what the hell do all day like what am I supposed to do and that uncertainty can be paralyzing so it took me a long time to be comfortable with that and once you are it's it's it's got its own rewards back to self efficacy and self determination but then the next problem is well how do I make a living so a lot of people who listen to your podcast may be trying to do something on their own and yes they'd like to be independent but it's not easy and so the next shift is how do I take something that I made and how do I turn that into something that can scale so now how do I go from this stage of I'm on my own I created a small company and okay my product works and now I have more of them well what next and is it something that I can generally reach people in all sorts of different contexts so not just big companies but universities can the barista at Starbucks can I help them make more of all I have to offer and so on and so I think that's where I'm going now I've got enough I'm grounded enough that I can dare to aim a little higher and that's you're right seven years so I think now's the time to do that and it's I am more excited about the future and I am more productive at 56 years old than ever which which is a real contrast to how I felt in the office when I was younger how strange that instead of winding down or that I'm more optimistic than I am than ever that's a great feeling I want to give that feeling to other people

Torsten J. Koerting: you mentioned that you were striving in earlier days whether it's five days five years ago ten years ago it doesn't matter but you're now looking for a shift that you're already perceiving what's what's that kind of shift and how do you feel that it will change your life moving forward

Gast: so and this maybe relates to what you're talking about with what's your Everest and that I would measure my fulfillment by outcomes so I will be happy when I will be good enough when and there was always you know this everyday unhappiness irritation something that I wasn't there yet and it took me a long time to realize oh this is a race without a finish line because I'll never you know and everyday I'm kind of missing as I'm heading towards some finish line that doesn't exist so what I'm trying to do now is less less about some outcome that I don't have control over and instead to do more intentional focused work that I can take satisfaction from any given day or week or month and then whatever happens happens I may make a mistake maybe I did the wrong thing maybe people don't like it whatever happens happens but if I'm fulfilling my own intentions back to being self directed if I'm fulfilling my own intentions and I'm doing putting in what I think is my best effort that's all you can do I'm not there yet but I think that's that's almost like the life of a crafts person right and you view it that way that back to this language I use make the most of all you have to offer what else could I do this is what I have right so instead of aspiring you know to go to Mars or to go I'm my aspiration is I make the most I have to offer and today I'm going to make the most of what I have to offer today and tomorrow I'll try again and I'll just keep building on that like I said that kind of compounding of steps over time and maybe that will take me to some great places maybe we'll reach millions of people maybe not but at least I can look back and say I made the most of all I had and that to me is not about striving that's about realizing my potential in an authentic genuine kind of grounded way and it's a much more balanced life and perspective so that's what I'm going for that's my in my next work allowed circle that's my goal is to really to work on that and to learn from others who I feel have made progress towards that

Torsten J. Koerting: I think balanced is a great word to put that and reminds me a little bit of Ken Wilbert who is the inventor initiator of the spiral dynamics and the conscious level and from

from

Torsten J. Koerting: your experience from your perspective have you had to go through that striving phase which is the orange in Ken Wilbert's philosophy to reach that kind of settlement and now the balance that we can feel during that podcast as well as what you are feeling for yourself or is there would you have taken a shortcut to that to that balancing

Gast: I wish I could I think I don't know that the suffering is necessary or at least I think there are I think it's a learnable skill how about that and I think if I had been exposed to mindfulness techniques and habits and science earlier I might have that might have been a good shortcut for me it's really only the last 10 or so years that I've even been self aware enough to work on it and I think you could do that much earlier I see it in my kids my kids are much more grounded at you know my 13 year old daughter than I am so yeah so this that that might be something in my future and

Torsten J. Koerting: like with the organizations we've talked about to start at the beginning when they're getting onboarded into that enterprise and make a change in how they work with each other by using the approach and also doing something with the university and with the younger generation to give them an environment where they are able to build trust and be open to each other rather than just looking at photoshopped whatever shopped Instagram pictures

Gast: right to help that's an interesting point to have them at the beginning of whatever their transition is to have them experience that there is another way a positive empathetic way that leads to mutual benefit and you know if you haven't experienced that then you're just going to look around doing you're just going to do what other people do which is why workplace cultures seem to persist even though we know that they're not that great so I think that's a great time to help people experience these entry points and whether it's a new employee or new student or a kid or a kid

Torsten J. Koerting: yeah you know my background is project management I've been in project management for I would say 30 years and managing large turnaround projects which are derailed with a huge amount of contract value and there's one saying in the project management world tell me how the project will start or has started I will tell you how it ends and maybe that's a great analogy to you know that that you are able to change people's lives early on in the process whether it's in their age or whether it's when they start within an organization by using your approach to have a much more fulfilling and in their terms successful end if there is an end

Gast: there's another saying of you know the best time to plant the tree was 20 years ago and the second best time is now and so you know I often tell my age because yes wouldn't it be great if you know the new joiner or the new student had this nice new perspective but if not if that's not you but you're in midlife and you're working and you want something more from work and life the second best time is now so I hope I hope that that what we're doing what we're talking about isn't just for a certain kind of person but genuinely can help anybody in whatever context they're in to realize more of their potential more of what they have to offer

Torsten J. Koerting: we talked about the new phase in your life John whether it's called a phase or whether it's a transition into a new balance four years and nine months ago at least according to your LinkedIn profile you founded your company Ikigai which is a great concept to get introduced known and to reflect your purpose is that something that was already one of the first elements to the phase you're going into now or what has driven you to come up with that great inspirational name for your organization for your company

Gast: the fact that it's a Japanese term and my wife's Japanese had something to do with it what where I first heard it it applied to people not who had done great things and had found a special purpose in their life was actually quite simple people in Okinawa who had a social network who had control competence connection who had met these intrinsic needs and as a result they lived longer that's where I first heard the term was in a study on longevity and one of the zones where people lived to 100 more than normal was in Okinawa so they would ask people in the survey like what's your icky guy like what is your reason for getting up in the morning and it could be as simple as they would take care of their grandkids with a garden with very simple basic fundamental human needs so for me what I hope to offer what I was looking for and I hope to offer other people isn't this quest for but it's almost to make connections that are meaningful for you so that you could tap into that sense of fulfillment every day less of a quest less of striving like we talked about and more of a quote that jumps to mind is from another Japanese guy he introduced Zen into the United States and they were trying to talk about gaining mind and this kind of abstract concept and so he broke it down for one of the students he said look you're perfect just the way you are and there's room for improvement that's it kind of like I could accept myself and what I have to offer and there's more that I can do and I can have both even if it seems like a paradox so that's what my sense of purpose is my reason to get up is to take what I have whatever it is and to make the most of it each day

Torsten J. Koerting: and again there is something that you're testing you're trying new things whether it works or whether it doesn't and trying to do the best you can every day there is a new platform that you've just introduced which is a global network where the working out loud circle enthusiasts and beginners and whoever would like to work and collaborate and create something for their own as well as with others it's a great platform to collaborate with each other where can people get access to and how could they join and what's the driving force behind it John

Gast: thank you for that what it's early it's almost a secret what

Torsten J. Koerting: let's call it MVP and pre beta yes exactly so

Gast: so tequila suspense if you go to community dot working out loud dot com you'll find it and what had happened over time is that I had tried I've experimented with different ways to distribute my work to reach people to try experiments to and and so if you wanted working out loud in your company that was one place if you wanted to try free circle guides that was another place if you wanted to experiment with education or healthcare that was someplace else and so on and so on there were LinkedIn groups and Facebook groups and it wasn't coherent so and what and so so and so and so you know about that or lean in circles for people who know about that so it's been around for a long time and this will be the place that whether you're just somebody who's looking for some free circle guides in German or you're interested in working out for kids or you want a supportive experience from me or a coach or your company and you want to send your team for a supportive experience free or paid experimental or something that's been around for a while this is the one place and it is new but I can already it's got a lovely vibe and there's about 700 people there and eventually will grow it so that this is the one home for all things related to working out loud and I hope that this makes it easier for people to practice easier for people to experiment take a step and then some of those people will take it inside their companies

Torsten J. Koerting: which is amazing to put everything together do you see that now it's all coming together that it does feel that way

Gast: and so you know I would have people who for example didn't you know maybe they didn't know there was a new version of the material maybe they don't know there's working out loud mindfulness or teams and so this makes it easier to practice in terms of coming together and again my real hope is that this will accelerate the learning and innovation that we do and I see that already even in the education field where when there's a home and you make it easier for people to make connections you accelerate the rate of knowledge exchange and innovation and so yeah like I said I'm very optimistic about not just the platform but about where we're headed and how I think the collaboration and the co-creation will spread

Torsten J. Koerting: and again another question before we drive the whole thing home there is a saying that we underestimate what we can achieve even 10 years time and we overestimate what we can do in a year looking back 2014 when you introduced the first impulse out there into the enterprise into the organization and looking where you're at at the moment is that something that you that you envisioned is that something that you thought would be possible

Gast: no so what I thought was I produced something that really wasn't terribly good and you know a lot of credit goes to Katherin the Krantz who said I think we could use this in our company but you need to do this and this through it good old German directness yeah sure and we've been friends ever since then so no so I didn't have any grand vision what I had was an inkling that people would make it their own and spread it and so that gave me a sense that okay it could be something that could scale but I didn't know necessarily what kind of changes that would lead to that there would be multiple methods that it would be in 65 countries I had no idea about that and so you know a theme in our conversation has been instead of having that that kind of one guiding light that purpose that Everest it hasn't been a plan it's been it's been a set of experiences and possibilities that have emerged and if I had a plan and stuck to the plan I would have missed all of that other thing so back to what you talked about with MVPs and lean startup this approach of you take a step you learn and you remain open and then you evaluate what the next step would be now it's messy it's chaotic it doesn't lend itself to an annual forecast and budgeting process right that you're used to as a project manager but boy that that allows for much greater creativity and innovation and adaptability right so when companies talk about VUCA world and we've certainly experienced that this past year this is the kind of skill set this is the kind of mindset that that they need and that their employees need and I think working out can help you experience that a little bit and it's helped me do that and it's a much better way to approach things work and life I think

Torsten J. Koerting: you know there's still questions on my mind and in my heart you're such an inspirational source of you're making me my kids

Gast: are going to make fun of me if you keep saying that stop it

Torsten J. Koerting: that's what kids are for they ground us in a different way

Gast: I have five kids and I have to say it's the best thing in my life and it's also tremendously humbling

Torsten J. Koerting: makes you humble right and still curious in what's about to come right so thank you till now and how we got in touch was you know I just texted you via LinkedIn right and because I have known you just by your name and brand for a couple of years now and people in my environment talking about you and you were such a resourceful connection over these kind of couple of weeks that we've been loosely in touch to make this interview happen and as approachable as you are which is fantastic and which makes another cornerstone for this kind of approach that you are sharing and with the vision that you have for the people in the world that you've shared here as part of the podcast how could people get in touch with you how would you like to be connected and get approached to

Gast: I think the thank you the easiest way is LinkedIn is probably 11,000 people they interact with LinkedIn and the websites are great all my contact information is on working out loud dot com and I view it look if someone takes time out of their day and offers attention like you did to hey I'm familiar with your work I think it's good I'd like to do this then the very least that I could do is to acknowledge the attention and with gratitude and if I can help and support I will and if I can I'll say so but but with just two people and this is another set of signals and so I was happy to hear from you and grateful for the time today thank you

Torsten J. Koerting: and you just reminded me of of a boss that we both had Hermann Josef Lamberti oh yeah yeah well PIO of the company he worked for and he was responsible for 30,000 people and just to share a quick story and I would like to encourage everybody who's listening to this who listened to your invite because your your value system reminds me of the value system of one of the former board members of that organization I wrote a book in those days and it was the second edition and we added some chapters and it was about the ITIL process framework the library that creates an environment where people are able to talk to each other even if they're in different organizations but want to talk about the same thing whether it's change management release management whatsoever and one day in the evening at half past I think it was half past seven half past eight I was still working for that organization and I approached him and asked him whether he would be willing to write the foreword of that book because I realized that he was strongly committed to process frameworks to provide people a structure so that they can collaborate on a global base more effectively within that organization as well with partners outside and to be really honest it took me like a huge amount of balls to put it that way to write that email

Gast: thank you

Torsten J. Koerting: I'm in the great energy so sometimes I lose my mind thanks so it took me a lot of courage to send that email and I didn't expect something back right he's responsible for was responsible 30,000 people and he must get tons of mails and requests and all that sort of stuff the next morning at half past nine I got a personal message by him sent out of his email basket you see whether somebody with access right wrote this or whether he did it personally he wrote a one liner he said dear Mr. Kerting I will do this because I feel certain about that topic and you will have my forward and Miss Miller I don't know what their name was please take over and six weeks later I had the signed forward from that guy and you remind me of that of that kind of value system right to be approachable to live what you preach to spread not just spread the word out there but being as approachable as the four to five people in that circle to make a stranger a friend and I would like to thank you for that John that you were as open and as open to all these questions that I asked that made you think one way or the other and how it's the approach in that kind of podcast the last word is to the interview partner what's your message what's your the word that you would like to get out there to the audience I

Gast: think I think that with all that's happening around us it's a lot to deal with and it can feel like a lot of things are happening to you whether it's work or life or family and what I'm hoping to offer is that here's one way that you can choose yourself that you can determine your next steps make a contribution make a difference for yourself and for the people around you and that you deserve that don't have to change your life doesn't have to change your job but it's just this step right and maybe that step will lead to other steps and lead to some special place but for now pick yourself if you can join a circle join a circle an hour a week 2% of your time and with the support and structure shared accountability of three or four other people invest in yourself it will help all the people connected to you I hope you will I hope you do thank you John Torsten it was a pleasure to meet you thank you very much for this these great questions and this really delicious talk thank you

Thank you.