Deep Dive mit Torsten Koerting — Folge 064
Stacy Taniguchi - Über Werte, Wachstum und das Mindset
2021-03-12

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Laut Folgentitel zu Gast: Stacy Taniguchi
Quelle: https://torstenkoerting.com/podcast/064-stacy-taniguchi-ueber-werte-wachstum-und-das-mindset

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Torsten J. Koerting: Hallo und herzlich willkommen zu dieser neuen Folge im Umsetzungsgiganten-Podcast. Und das Interview, das du heute hören darfst, war so nicht geplant. Es war noch nicht mal erreichbar in meinen kühnsten Träumen. Es ist entstanden aus einer kurzen LinkedIn-Kommunikation, wo ich gar nicht zu hoffen gewagt habe, dass derjenige mir antwortet. Ich habe dadurch einen Termin bekommen. 15 Minuten waren geplant und in diesen 15 Minuten war mein Ziel, denjenigen zu einem Podcast-Interview einzuladen bzw. davon zu überzeugen. Und was dann passiert ist, ist ein 75 Minuten langes Gespräch. Tiefgehend, besonders, magisch und unfassbar inspirierend. Und dieser Mensch, den ich dir vorstellen möchte, ist jemand, der in Amerika unfassbar bekannt ist. Und zwar ist er die Seele hinter The 100 List. The 100 List ist vielleicht vergleichbar mit der Löffelliste, mit deinen Zielen, die du erreichen möchtest, mit deinen Ergebnissen, die du erzielen möchtest, mit dem, was du in deinem Leben vielleicht mal erleben möchtest. Und diese Liste entsteht, du hast vielleicht das eine oder andere schon mal darüber gehört. Und er bringt das in einen ganz anderen Kontext. Er verbindet diese Liste mit Werten und bringt eine Verbindung, dass alle Items, alle Einträge auf dieser Liste mit deinen Werten konkurrent, also zusammenhängend sein dürfen. Und er verbindet mit dieser Liste einige Regeln. Und jetzt ist er jemand, der wie kaum ein anderer da draußen das Recht hat, uns davon zu berichten. Denn er hat diese Liste vor vielen Jahrzehnten aufgestellt für sich, als er sich dieses Konzept erarbeitet und eröffnet hat. Und bis heute hat er alle 100 Items auf dieser Liste erfüllt und ist nun in der Lage, andere Menschen zu inspirieren, zu motivieren und in die Lage zu versetzen, ihre eigene Liste zu erstellen und danach, wie er sagt, zu thriven, also danach zu streben, diese Liste, ja, nicht abzuarbeiten, sondern zu erleben. Und er war auf dem Mount Everest. Er hat ein PhD, also den Doktortitel. Er lehrt an einer der bekanntesten Universitäten in Amerika. Und er hat 97 andere krasse und für viele Menschen unerreichbare Dinge erlebt. Und dieses Gespräch führt uns hinter die Kulissen. Es führt uns zu den Menschen. Es führt uns dahin, wo diese intrinsische Motivation herkommt, Außergewöhnliches zu leisten und wirklich zu einem Umsetzungsgiganten, meine Worte, zu einem Umsetzungsgiganten zu werden. Lass dich nun inspirieren von diesem Gespräch, was nicht geplant war. Ein Gespräch, was auf Englisch stattfinden wird, weil derjenige kommt aus Utah und wird uns in einem der nächsten Expertencalls für Fragen und Antworten zur Verfügung stehen. Und wenn du daran nicht teilnehmen kannst, dann ist hier die Möglichkeit, dich 75 Minuten hineinzuversetzen in eine Welt, die zumindest für mich unerreichbar, unfassbar und unglaublich inspirierend ist. Begrüßt bitte mit mir Stacey Taniguchi.

Torsten J. Koerting: Umsetzungsgiganten.

Gast 1: Und in that perseverance I found new levels of strength.

Torsten J. Koerting: Und dann habe ich angefangen, das zu machen. Spätigkeit weitergeben zu dürfen. Aber es hat was mit Geduldigsein zu tun. Also zu erfahren, was denn die jungen Menschen bewegt.

Gast 1: Sie machen mich wirklich mit diesen Fragen denken. Das ist wunderschön.

Gast 2: Such an honor, I must say. It's an honor and a pleasure to have that opportunity to chat with you and have you in this Zoom room. Oh, well, thank you. Martin, he has so highly spoken about you. Not just when we first met a couple of years ago, but especially during the Alpine Cross that we did together, about, it was two and a half years ago that he participated with, oh no, it was, yeah, it was two and a half years, one and a half years ago with Kim. Yes. Of course, we had many opportunities to chat, Martin and myself, in the various adventures we did together. And he always pinpointed, you know, with the finger to Stacey. And he said, you know, he's been about 28 times more on Denali than I was.

Gast 1: Yeah, that shows how maybe I haven't learned my lesson yet.

Gast 2: Is there another lesson that you need to learn on Denali? Hopefully not the one that he had to learn with his first climb that he did here in this.

Gast 1: Yeah, well, I think the major difference is, you know, that was my professional career office, you know. Guiding on Denali was something I did every year. And so it would always bring me back. And, you know, you know a lot of people who keep coming back to the mountains so they become your friends, so it's your one chance to kind of reconnect. So it was always, it was actually always a good thing that I look forward to every spring and summer.

Gast 2: Being on the mountains and being outside in nature.

Gast 1: Yes, absolutely.

Gast 2: Yeah, I read your thesis and I was so inspired, not just about the way how it came together, the thesis. Yeah, just putting the doctor on the bucket list and put it on the list and thrive. But also the deep conclusion around what's necessary that as a team you are able to grow personally as well as a team in nature and combining adventures and team experiences and personal growth together. Yeah, because grow is the essence from what I read out of it. It's that emotions need to have a context and an environment to develop and to be shown. Which is G, which is Gefühle in German. Okay. Then what I read out of it is that there needs to be risk involved. Of course, manageable risk, not the uncertain risk and the tough ones. But, you know, to take you at least a little bit outside the comfort zone, which is the R, which is the risk in R. Then you mentioned that experiences have to be reflected and debriefed in a certain way. So, that's the O, which I call it Objektivieren, which is, you know, I had to find something that fits in that GROW acronym, you know.

Gast 2: Yeah. And the W is, in Germany, is the Wunderlich. Yeah. It's the awkward that you mentioned. It has to feel awkward. Yeah. Those kind of experiences. And I love that. I love that acronym. I love what you took out of those theses. And not just the thesis itself, but how you brought the people together and to have a Wissenschaftlich, how do you call this in English, like an academy approach, yeah, to the whole thing.

Gast 1: Well, you know, the whole idea is when you, what I have found, like I have been an academic academic for most of my life and for anyone who is out there as a teacher in the traditional classroom, you are typically in a position where you are talking at people. And there may be some interaction, but in many cases, it's very limited. And I noticed that in many of my classes, you know, I would have students who were not paying attention. They're not interested in it. And because in a lot of times there were things, and I will be the first to admit it, what I was talking about was not relevant in their life. Yet when I go guiding, everything is relevant to all of my clients. And so they are very highly engaged. And that idea of having that experience was kind of what motivated me to want to understand it a lot more, which led me to my research and my doctoral dissertation. And what I discovered is exactly what you're talking about, that when you are in positions where you are kind of put out of your comfort zone, and that I think is really what I mean by risk, it does put you in a position where emotionally, psychologically, you feel like you're in an awkward position. Now, this can be anything from high adventure experiences to, for example, going somewhere where you don't know anyone, and you just feel a little out of place. That can be a risk, and that can be feelings of awkwardness. And what that eventually does is it starts to do what I call sublimate people.

Gast 1: You know, we spend so much of our time layering ourselves with titles and accomplishments that really society looks at you that way, right? They look at you as an accomplished podcaster. They look at you as an accomplished consultant. And those are really just layers that are placed upon you because that's what gives, brings attention to the things that you want to accomplish in your life. But the problem that we have is that we keep layering ourselves with these titles and other things. What gets lost is that inner self that Immanuel Kant refers to as the sublime nature of things, including people. And sublimating is, I borrowed the term from chemistry. And I know a lot of people think of sublimation as that process like dry ice going from a state of a solid right to a gas. It skips the liquid phase. But in actuality, sublimating is really, what it means is it's a purification process. So if you ever have looked at dry ice, after it all evaporates, when you look into the container, you'll normally see that there are remnants of things left in the container, usually a white precipitate. And what they are is they were the impurities that were trapped when the carbon dioxide was frozen.

Gast 1: So that process, you know, is what caused the purification of pure carbon dioxide being evaporated out. Well, sublimation in what we're talking about is the peeling off of those layers, which I'm not suggesting they're impurities. But what we're trying to get is to the pure person. And that's the sublime nature. Who are you really? And when you get to start to see that, like you're referencing, there's a growth that occurs. In my model, I call it a reconstruction. But it's like after you peel this off, you're kind of in a different state looking at what I consider to be, what are your weaknesses? What are your strengths? But in reference to your growth model, it's what are your potentials? And many times people don't see that. And what I have found in my life is the outdoor experiences that I've been involved in are great ways to bring about sublimation.

Gast 2: So you experienced it on your own, in your personal adventures and experiences that you have gone through, where you have broadened your comfort zone. And you've grown with that, by that, let's call it purification process, you know, and you wash out all the dust, right? And it becomes clearer and clearer who Stacey is, as well as putting others through that experience rather than, you know, stacking certificates and degrees and trainings and whatever we're doing to become more appreciated and significant, right? To go deeper and find ourselves.

Gast 1: Right. I think it helps you to realize kind of the value that you have, because sometimes you spend a lot of effort and energy to put these layers on, because society would probably respect you more or value you more. But if, if, if it doesn't work out that way, people can be very discouraged and can lose hope. I mean, a good example is what's, you know, has happened in this past year with this pandemic, life has changed for so many people in so many different ways. And all of a sudden, some of the things that you have spent years and a lot of resources and energy to build all of a sudden become not important and not a viable way to give value to what you've done. You know, I think of, you know, you know, I think of, you know, I think of a restaurant owner who might have spent years learning the craft of food and cooking and, and creating the capital that he or she needs to build a restaurant. And overnight, a little overnight, that can just all go away. And all of a sudden, you can question your value and everything that you work for. My approach is to, as discouraging as that can be, still don't lose sight of who you really are. And all of that work that you've done should give you the sense that there's still, you still have the potential to do, do it again, or do it another way or to do something different to keep you, you know, having hope to move forward in your life. And like, like I try to tell people, you know, to, to thrive.

Gast 2: Do you see the current pandemic as an opportunity to get closer to the core and to find something that really drives us for many people out there?

Gast 1: I think if you're in the right frame of mind, yes. I think those people who understand how, what I call a meaningful experience works, can see it in that perspective. Their lens is, is one in which, like you say, a chance for them to reflect back on themselves. What have I done? What, what can I continue to do? And whatever. Unfortunately, I think though, the pandemic has also done the opposite. That if you're not really aware of how experiences can influence your life, you can see that a devastating effect of losing a business, losing a job. Seeing things around you just changing can be one in which you just throw up your hands and you go, you know, so, so now what, what, you know, what I do? So I think I can see it both ways. But what I have seen is when I'm out talking to people about thriving, that what resonates, I think, with them is this idea that I can still, there are still things I can do. And, and what I try to offer people, and what I try to offer people are just some simple tools that doesn't cost anything. In fact, for many people, you can go home and start working on this process today. And, and, and in the process, gain that hope back that there is still more to do. I, I tell people, you know, um, one of your famous countrymen, who I've studied quite a bit is Frederick Nietzsche. And he had this epiphany one time that he calls the question of the eternal reoccurrence of the same. And, and it's a very profound question. He suggested that if someone who had the ability to, uh, to provide this opportunity for you came up and asked you, you know, TJ, would you be willing to live your life over and over again, as you have lived it to this point for eternity?

Gast 1: What would you say?

Gast 2: It would be boring if there would be no development, no creativity and no new things to endeavor and to look into. No comfort zone to be stretched because everything is already in there in the company, right?

Gast 1: Except he, you know, he's, he's talking about this idea that, you know, there, there would be people that obviously would say, no, I would not. I would not do that. And what I have found is a lot of people answer in the negative because they're looking back in their past. And they're dwelling on the negative things that have happened in their life. And they just don't want to experience that anymore. Other people might say, well, some parts I would, some parts that I wouldn't. But Frederick Nietzsche is not giving you that opportunity. It has to be a yes or a no. My hope would be people would look at that question in a little bit different way. If I could live my life, I would not dwell so much on what I've done in the past. But how can I improve my future? How can I make my life so that if the question is asked later on in my life, I will have lived the life that I would want to come back. And not from the perspective that I would come back so that I could experience it all again. I would suggest you look at that question that I would come back because I could teach so many more people the lessons that I've learned in my life to make their life better. And so I start off with that question, asking people to try to figure out, you know, it's just a simple way of figuring out where do you think you are? And then to help them to take a vision of their future of what would you like that to be like? And let's start making those things happen. Because, you know, you know, as well as I do, when you start to plan out things and you make a list of things and stuff, all of a sudden, things like opportunities become more visible and more you just realize that your life is so full of opportunities. But many times we gloss over them, we make excuses to why we can't take advantage of them, you know, I don't have the time right now, oh, I can't afford doing that right now, or whatever. When you have thought about what would make your life a life to thrive, and you identify those things, all of a sudden, those opportunities become more prevalent. I mean, you just find out every day, you're filled with opportunities. And the question now becomes, why wouldn't I be doing that right now? Because that's something I've identified that would help improve my life and improve what I could live to be able to answer the question, absolutely, I would come back and live my life over and over again. So, you know, that's, that's kind of the approach that I take, but I feel like, and I'm not saying my way is the only way, I'm sure there are hundreds of other ways, but my way is just one of the many that might be just to resonate with people, to just, you know, start doing something, you know, take the first step. It's like when I tell my clients on climbing mountains, when a lot of the people get out of the airplane, when they land on the glacier, and they see how massive Denali is, or when you're hiking to Everest, and you see how big Everest is, the thing that you always have to keep in mind is, just take the first step. Take the first step. And that's all people need to understand.

Gast 2: I think that the pandemic uncovers those two streams very dramatically. We see those people that are stuck in their, in their, how do you say, in their inability to change and to move, right? And what, what, what I talk to people, I tell them, look, our species is, is the only one that has ever been on the planet, at least that we know, that is capable of adapting to new circumstances very quickly. From, from, from an intellectual perspective, I'm not talking about like the Falkland or the Darwin Islands, right? Where we've seen the evolution, you know, creates different species, but we are able to adapt and change. I've just talked to a company leader this morning, and he said he was really impressed how fast companies have adapted to that pandemic. And on the other side, so the ones that are stuck, right, I, I, I talked to them like you, you're, you're standing in the corner, you're binging and you're waiting until it's getting better. Right. Or is going to be the old, but there is a new, right? That it's the new normal that we're currently seeing. And then we see the others that take the approach that, that you are envisioning for yourself and others. They say, all right, look, yes, there is a trauma period of one or two days. We're now in lockdown and the lockdown might take place for six weeks or 12 weeks or a year now. Yes. Yeah. So what can I do to adapt, to change, to embrace what's there and make the best out of it?

Gast 2: Yeah. And I went, I went through the, the process of John Strzelecki. Yeah. I'm sure you know him. Yes. With the, the, the, the big five for life, that process. And as part of finding your big fives, as well as your reason for existing, I think that's the English translation, the Zweck der Existenz, is that as part of a two-day process, you look, you look in your past because his philosophy, I'm sure you know it, is that your why is already there. You lived it, you lived it already. And we just have to uncover it. And one question in that process was, what are your three best or the three movies you have embraced the most? And I said, all right, the first one going through that process, oh, the first one, from dusk till dawn. Yeah. Quentin Tarantino and the other nice guy. Yeah. All the females. George Clooney. George Clooney. Exactly. Yeah. That great movie, great turning point, you know, with the aliens coming and all that stuff. Yeah.

Gast 2: The second movie, it was a hard time. I said, what is the second movie? Is it like Star Wars? I said, the second movie is if my life would have been transformed or my life would have been a movie. That would be my famous movie because I would exactly live the life as I lived it with the drama, with the fear, with the joy, with the love, with the conflicts. I would live it exactly the same way again, being here that day, reflecting on what's driving me, what's my inner motivation. And I think that's a metaphor, right, that you envision it, that you wouldn't get across, right? That you look back at your life and say, bam, I would step back and now I share my learnings, share my stories, share my messages. Right. Right. Exactly.

Gast 1: I also, I give a metaphor for people as they start to think about what they would like to do in their life. And I call it the list of 100. The 100 things that you would want to accomplish and do in your life, places you would want to go, people you want to meet, things you want to learn, types of things. I give this metaphor that when you climb big mountains, many of the big mountains of the world are surrounded by glaciers. And glaciers have these big, huge, gaping cracks. We call them crevasses. And ideally, when you have to get across these cracks, you look for a narrow enough place where you can step across or jump across safely. But that's not always possible. Sometimes it's so wide that the next best thing is you look for a snow bridge that where the snow and ice hasn't melted out yet. And hopefully it's strong enough for you to cross. But those don't always exist. So on Everest, we bring 12-foot aluminum ladders. And we might have to lash several of them together to span the gap. And then you have to cross over it. Now, realizing that some of these gaps are not only wide, but they can be very, very deep. Many of the glaciers I'm on are over 3,000 feet thick. So when you cross these ladders, stepping on rung to rung to rung, there's always the danger of fear of being so high over a dark abyss. You slip and trip and fall. It's all over. So then I ask the question to people, if you can imagine such an environment and that you know to climb your mountain, whether it's your life summit or whatever, you have to get across this crevasse. And the ladder is the only way to go across. What is it that's going to take you to risk going across that ladder? And I use the example for many people who are not familiar with these kinds of environments. You say, would you cross it if I was willing to give you a certain amount of money? And many people will say, no, I'm not going to risk my life for money. But every single time if I tell people, I want you to think of a young person who you care very deeply for, a son, a daughter, a niece, a nephew, and that person's in trouble on the other side. Like maybe they're walking around, they don't realize they're coming very close to the edge of the crevasse and they might fall in.

Gast 1: And the only way to prevent that from happening is you need to get over there to keep them safe. Would you cross the ladders then? And everyone that I give the example to says, absolutely, I would. Then I would suggest to them, what you have just identified is something that you value, something that is very important to you. You need to take the time to identify what those values are in your life. Like in relationship to what you're saying, it's kind of like, what are the things in your life that have been so powerful to you to keep you feeling like, you know, there's life is worth living for. And I encourage people to create what I call the list of your core values. Then when you start making your list of 100, think about those values, because whatever you put on that list cannot be in conflict with those values. Because if they are in conflict, you will not thrive. You will always have this dissonance of like, I'm doing something that I'm really, I don't really believe in or whatever. And so I try to walk them through this process of identifying your core values. Because if you don't have your core values identified, I say you're like a ship in a storm without a rudder. If the winds blow you this way, you'll go that way. If the winds keep you back, you'll stay back. The, you know, you, the core values is like your direction finder. They're the ones that help you to actually know what would I, what am I willing to work hard for to accomplish? And that's part of this process of trying to develop a plan to live a life to thrive. And I think it goes right along with this idea of growing, because that's what growth is. Growth is about thriving.

Gast 2: And Martin and myself, we've been to a couple of Tony Robbins events, and I'm sure you know him and maybe have been to one of his events as well. He's talking about the six human needs, right? And the two top ones out of those six that make you thrive. And part of his coaching process that Martin and I have been teached for is that in one of those seven steps to create lasting change. So to make people move into another direction, even if pain moving into that direction is bigger than the pain, staying in the status quo, he talks about to find the lever to make change a must. And that's exactly the, the, the analogy that you just brought in with the, with the values to find your core values and to find that lever to make change a must, to walk over that ladder across the crevasse to be able to move a step further and not being hindered or buried by something that's in your way and moving forwards to.

Gast 1: Sometimes that's what you need to get sublimated, right? To, to, to step on that ladder would be very difficult. It would be very awkward. Definitely layers will start peeling off, right? It's not going to matter who you, you know, who you think you are. You know, it's for me, I always tell my students, you know, when we're out on a hiking trip or whatever, and we're, we're in some bad weather and things are getting kind of miserable and we're trying to find a good camp spot or whatever it might be. I said, you know, at this point, it doesn't matter that I'm your professor, that I have a PhD that, you know, all these other things, they, they don't matter. Those layers are peeling off. The question is, do I have what it takes to get us out of this situation? You know, what, what, what are my strengths? And I probably would even show weaknesses and they would be doing the same thing. Now, the question is, can we come together and utilize all our strengths to create the potential of being able to get to a safe place and get comfortable and warm, you know, and et cetera, that that's, that's part of that process.

Gast 2: Yeah. And I love the way how you put it and I love the way how you, and that's what's really inspired me talking with Martin about it. And this, this conversation is just happening for 30 minutes. It's proof of that, how you put that into the context of the nature and the adventures that we are able to having taken place in, in nature and putting that into the context, right? It's not about, Martin has this fantastic closing question in his keynotes, right? He talks about his seven summits and the seven seas and the North Pole and the South Pole and people sitting there, wow, that amazing pictures. And this guy, how he did all this and what drove him, you know, to, to climb all seven summits, you know, after his friend died, what drove him to, you know, sail the seven seas because of Lily that, you know, was born disabled. And he wanted to create something for the family so that they can do something together. But on the other side, they asked himself, I'm not going to climb Everest, you know, I'm not going to sail whatever ocean, what does it have to do with me? And then he asked the final closing question before he closes his speech. So what's your Everest? Yeah. And this turns the, you know, I get goosebumps, you know, this, this turns the whole thing around and puts it into the context of an individual sitting in the audience.

Gast 1: Yeah, no, that's a very insightful question that people, you know, if they take the time to think about it and, and put it into their own personal lives, you know, we all have our Everest, whatever that may be, you know, it could be for a business. It's just, we, we've got to pivot and turn and change because what we, what we've been doing is not enough anymore, we've got to move on. I, I was consulting with a pharmaceutical company that was doing very well with one particular drug, but the patent on that drug was going to expire soon. So they brought me in to see if I could help them understand that change is not only necessary, but it could be a good thing. And so to use the analogy again, of the outdoors, I decided I would take them mountain biking here in Utah. We have some of the best mountain biking trails in the world. And when we got out to this area, we call the slick rock. I said that these were all of their management people. I said, how many of you know how to ride a bike? Well, everybody's hand went up. And I said, tell me about your riding experiences. Well, most of them, in fact, all of them said, well, I ride my bike in the city or I ride my bike in my neighborhood. And I said, oh, okay, then riding out here shouldn't be that much more difficult. And so I don't say anything about how to ride a mountain bike or anything. I said, you adjust the seat to where you want it to be. How do you feel comfortable? And then we go ride. And it's pretty obvious within the first 30 minutes, they are not having a good time. They're falling over. They can't get over the rocks. Every time they come to a hill, they got to get off and walk their bikes up. They can't go downhill very well without falling. So after about 30 minutes, I stop at a very nice open area. And I just say, are we having fun? Are we liking this? And everybody's going, no, I hate this. I'm walking the bike more than I'm riding the bike and all of this. And I said, oh, well, that's kind of interesting. Yeah. I just assumed you guys all knew how to ride a bike. And I said, but let's look at this differently. You notice the terrain is different and things are different. And you look at your bike and it's probably a little bit different than what you're normally riding. And so we spend some time telling them how to change their mindset of what it used to be like riding a bike. Like, for example, your bike seat has to be a lot higher than what you think it should be because putting your feet on the ground while you're still sitting on the bike is not the way we mountain bike. It's more about the efficiency of extending your legs and pedaling. I said, you know, shifting gears. Have you been shifting your gears? Because in mountain biking, you shift your gears almost constantly. And we just give them about 10 minutes worth of just more insights in how to change. And then we ride the rest of the trail. And all of a sudden, mountain biking becomes enjoyable. They don't have to get off their bikes. They don't have to worry about, you know, they're not falling down as much or whatever it might be. And I asked them at the end, I said, now, how was it? And most of the people are saying, oh, that was so much better. I enjoyed it better. And I said, so what's the difference? Oh, we had to change the way we rode our bike. So then I say, well, then change must be good. In some cases, it's necessary. And then, you know, then you process it to their environment, to how it deals with their business. But just having that sublimating experience where all of a sudden, you know, you're not as good as you thought you were. And something's not right and whatever, but you make some changes and you reflect a little bit about how things need to be changed. It makes all the difference.

Gast 1: And like you, you're saying, then growth happens.

Gast 2: Right? Yeah. And talking about the ladder that you have to get across to make it over the crevasse to the other side doesn't create that experience. But taking them out on one of your most beautiful mountain bike trails in the world, close to Utah, close to Salt Lake and all the other places, great places in Utah. And let them feel what it means to apply change, what it means if you stay where you are with that short saddle and with your riding technique, which makes you fall. You could proceed like this, but to make them feel that change is actually a good thing and might take you out of something where you think, all right, it's okay to fall. It's okay to not ride it perfectly, but, you know, I don't need this impulse. I just stay where I am because I am moving to apply change. And it feels like this eye-opening emoji, like, oh, yeah, and it feels much better, I think is a great way to have people experience in nature those different aspects, what it takes to thrive and what's required to thrive.

Gast 1: I have had some people who have heard my presentations on thriving and actually was a professor from another university who came up to me. She had said, two years ago, I heard your presentation and I decided I was going to make my list of values and my list of 100. And she said, one of the things on the list was I wanted to learn to play the guitar and to be able to perform in front of other people. And she said, for the last two years, I've been taking lessons and trying to be better at it. And last summer, she said, in my town where I live, there's a central park and the city has a stage where people can sign up and go and do whatever they want to do on the stage. And people who are sitting in the park can listen if they want. And she said, I decided, I think I'm good enough that I could perform. And so she signed up and she went on stage and played two songs. And she said people were clapping and she said, I really felt so good. And, but I didn't really understand what that was. And she said, I went home, took out my list and I was going to check it off. And then she said, I just realized what I just felt. I felt what it meant to thrive. And she says, it felt so good, almost addicting, she said. I looked on my list for the next thing that I want to do because that's what I want to now, because I want to continue feeling that thriving process. So, you know, like for the types of trips that you and Martin take people on, that multi-sensory experience is what is visceral, right? It makes, they feel it within themselves. And it just creates, in my mind, it creates that sublimating experience. Not necessarily death defying, but just, you know, they're, they're just, you know, in some awkward moments that makes them very teachable because the layers are coming off and they're beginning to see a little bit about themselves. And I think, you know, things that you do, things that Martin does, what I try to do is try to take advantage of those moments as teaching moments and helping them through whatever it is that they might be struggling with or looking to find, you know, other answers. Like you said, during this pandemic, the people who are going to survive and come out of this very well are the people who are going to take this opportunity that even though something else might have been lost, what can I learn now that will help me progress forward? Whether it's in the same kind of business or the same kind of environment, or you're willing to make that change and to grow, you know, further.

Gast 2: What's on your bucket list? What's on your list of 100? What is left there?

Gast 1: Well, that's, you know, it's been really interesting. The number on the list isn't as important as on the list. So I tell people, my list just turned out to be 100 things. And because I'm so old, I've completed the list. I've checked everything on. And my answer to everyone is, and I really do feel I've lived a life to thrive. I have been very, very fortunate and blessed to have recognized the opportunities and taken advantage of them. Can I add to the list? Absolutely. In fact, my wife and I, you know, have added some things of places we'd like to go together and things like that. And so, but yeah, the things that have been on my list have been, you know, a lot of them have been ordinary dreams and things that I think many people would also like to have on their list. And others of them I put on there that were just kind of way, way out there. You know, I wanted to meet a president of the United States. Well, that's not usually something that happens for most people, but an opportunity came up and I decided I'm going to take advantage of it. And so I had the opportunity to take, you know, to do that and eventually check it off my list. And so sky's the limit. I mean, you know, as long as what you put on the list does not conflict with the core values that you've identified, you're, you know, you're, you're on the, you're on your way to thrive.

Gast 2: And I love the last sentence that you just said. It's not just to finding the lever for change to understand your values and what's, what's, what's important for you in life, but also to be conscious about what you put on the list that doesn't conflict your values.

Gast 1: Yeah, I, I, I definitely suggest to people be thoughtful about what you put on the list, because another thing that I usually tell people, and it's not a rule or anything, but it's just what I tell people is think about what you put on the list as if you can't take it off. Once you put it on, if it's important to you today, it will be important to you 50 years from then. So keep it on the list, the list may grow to over 100, and that's okay. But what I have found is when I revisit my list to look at some of the things on there, I, I see some things on there that remind me of where I, I was, and where I am today. And, and that's the recognition of growth and thriving. And, and, and so I tell people, you know, be thoughtful about what you put on the list, but couch it in this idea that if I put it on the list, I'm never going to take it off. I'm either going to check the box or I'm not going to check the box. And, and of course, you know, the, the goal is not to check everything off. I'm, I'm not suggesting that this is not a bucket list. I try to explain to people, I know it sounds like you're creating a bucket list, but a bucket list implies this is the stuff you want to do before you die. What I'm suggesting, these are the things that you're planning to live and to live fully and to be able to answer Nietzsche's question that I've lived such a good life and learned so many good lessons. Yes, absolutely. I want to come back over and over again so I can, you know, teach people, relive those moments and, and, and, and make a difference in the world.

Gast 2: Have you seen that items on your list, if you wouldn't have done them, they wouldn't be in your, in your current phase of life, wouldn't be that important and that you have, you are glad that you have thrived for those items in the phase where they were and have been relevant for you?

Gast 1: If I understand your question correctly, let me give you a real quick story. When I was climbing Everest, coming down, when we were done, we were going through the Khumbu Icefall. And, um, I slipped and fell and I dislocated my knee and I, I, this was a bad place to be because this is where all the ice blocks and everything are falling over this 2000 foot cliff. And you're weaving your way around it. You can hear creaking and everything. Most of the people who have died on Everest have died in the icefall either because, you know, something collapsed or there's an avalanche. And so the decision was made that I, the rest of the team had to get out of the icefall. It's just too dangerous. So I try, I was making my way through the icefall on my own, crawling most of the time, you know, and just having a real difficult time. And, um, as I, I came over this one rise, I looked out and coming back from the base camp where the Sherpas who had taken the rest of the team back to base camp, but they were turning around and coming back and they were coming back to get me. And, you know, and for anyone who doesn't know how dangerous the icefall is, that would be like you going back into a burning building to go save something that you value. And all I remember was at that particular moment, I realized, wow, there are people who value me. And to be true to that sense, I've always reflected on that as being so important in my life that I would always want to live a life that would validate what those Sherpas were doing to come back to rescue me out of the icefall. In the United States, um, our surgeon general, every so often creates a list of the top 10 epidemics in the United States.

Gast 1: And I don't know if this is true in Germany, I would hope not, but in the United States, the third highest epidemic is loneliness. And I was shocked by that. I was thinking loneliness in a country that has so much, how can anybody feel lonely? And I did some research on it and I discovered a common thread through all the literature on loneliness was this people would have a sense of not being valued. Like if you don't feel valued in your work, then you're probably lonely at work. If you're not valued at school, you're probably lonely at school. If you're not valued at home, you can be a lonely family member. And I thought, my gosh, how can we turn that around? And, uh, so coming back to your answer, climbing Everest was on my list. And if it hadn't been on the list, I, the chances are, I would probably never have gone to go to Everest. But because I did, I had this experience and this experience has really opened my eyes to this idea that I need to live my life to be worthy of the value that the Sherpas were willing to risk their lives. To come and save me. If I do anything that would not be worth them risking their lives, I would feel like I would be cheating them. So this idea of this, the list to thrive being an important guide through your life has so many other implications that could come, you know, across your path that I think would be very educational for us in this idea of who we are and what is our value. And, and, and to realize that if we discover that we are of worth to other people and other things, and in some cases you might think of a, uh, you know, a, a higher being, whatever it is, you have this tendency of not wanting to risk the worth of that value that other people see. And everybody has, and everybody has sublime nature. Kant says, we all have this sublime nature. It is the essence of who we are. In fact, I believe in the, in his writings, he calls it, every person has this nobleness that cannot be described, but we all have it. It is our job in this life to discover it. And I think that's what is that journey of discovery is what I find to be very, uh, that's the thriving.

Gast 2: So. I'm so touched by the story, um, that you just shared with, um, Everest, as well as the Sherpas, um, coming back through that dangerous area, most dangerous area, um, on that mountain, as you described it. Um, if not the, the 300 people queue to the, uh, to the peak, you know, two years ago, I think it was. Um, is that also part of that reflection, that debriefing that needs to take place to uncover the, the real story and the real message behind an item? You might call it an item on the list that you have thrived for and achieved to uncover the real learning that's behind that item.

Gast 1: Yeah. I think an important part is to be able to reflect and look at that. And it's very important. I, I feel it's very important to reflect with those who have shared the experience with you because they will see things in you that you may not see. You know, it's kind of, you know, it's kind of this idea, um, the, the sublime nature is one in which I think, you know, you, you will probably know situations like this where you have seen something that has, that is so breathtaking that you want to go and tell people about it. You, you, you want them to go and, and see it themselves or whatever. You may even have pictures, but the people that you tell it to, if they weren't with you, they, they will probably say, oh yeah, that, that looks beautiful, whatever. But they don't get that essence of what it is that you just experienced. Right. So what I feel is the sublime nature has to be experienced. It cannot be described. And so if people share those experiences with you, then you have somebody you can relate to that can relate to why you feel so passionate about something. And when they, they, they, they, you guys, if you look at the pictures, the pictures have much more meaning because there's so much more that surrounds the picture. What were you doing at the time? What had happened just previously where you were going to go afterwards? There's, there's so much in there. And, and in many cases, when you reflect with other people who have shared the experience with you, that can be so enlightening because they will have seen things in you that you did not see in yourself. Like you might say, oh yeah, I remember that day. I was so tired and I was having such a hard time getting to the next spot that we were trying to get to and whatever. And people will tell you, yeah, you had a rough day that day, but did you know, you know, like the day before you were helping me get through a hard period of time or you, you took some of my stuff to carry because you knew I was struggling with the weight or that you were being very encouraging to me to keep moving or whatever. And all of a sudden what you are looking at as a weakness is being described by someone else as strengths that you had that were, was helping them. In other words, they're actually helping you define your sublime nature. So absolutely, the debrief is important. I mean, if you, if there's no one that shared it with you, reflecting on your own is very important, but it's better if you have shared it with others and you can reflect with them.

Gast 2: And you're a perfect and very sensible role model on that topic, not putting the summiting Everest on top of that whole story, but the message and the story that was behind that effort, behind that item on your list, not just, you know, ticking something off. And yes, I've been on Everest and look, I'm the best because I did it and I ticked it off. But to find and uncover the real message behind that achievement, which is not by going up, not by preparing, not by spending, I don't know, 50 odd days at the mountain going from camp to camp, acclimatizing and the whole effort that you put in to achieve this. But the experience that you had in the Kumbu Glacier going down and the experience that you reflected on being taken out by the Sherpas that have risked their life to save yours.

Gast 1: Yeah, absolutely. It's, I know you've heard this many, many times. It's the journey that's important, right? Reaching the destination may be the motivation to get on the journey, but it's really about the journey. Life is a journey. You know, whatever adventure you, you know, partake of is a journey. And it's two researchers who have done a lot of research around this theory called self-determination theory. Ryan in DC said, the ultimate journey of well-being is to live a life where you have experienced the full range of emotions. The good with the bad, you know, it's this kind of idea that you really need to experience the bad to know how good the good is. And they, you know, they say people who are, there's been a lot of studies on this, but it's always couched under this term called the myths of happiness. People think happiness is couched in wealth, power, things, you know, beauty. And in reality, those are just temporary fleeting moments of what we might call pleasure rather than joy and happiness. Happiness is actually having the opportunity to grow and to realize this is where I was and this is where I am and this is where I want to go. And having that kind of outlined in front of you and being willing to have the down moments as learning moments as well as the high moments that are moments to celebrate, you know, achievements and things. So, you know, it is it is all about the journey.

Gast 2: Who has helped you to uncover that magic moment in the Kumbu Glacier and how long did it take? Was it on that day when you realized now something magic is happening and that's the story behind the story? Or did it take a couple of days or weeks or when did that that aha moment came across your mind and your heart that this was actually the core magic moment why you had to why you had to climb Everest to uncover that analogy and that learning and that message out of that whole experience?

Gast 1: Well, I think, you know, because of the immediacy and the danger that I was in, I don't think it was an immediate realization. But it wasn't much longer after that, especially as the Sherpas are struggling to, you know, put me in a comfortable position on one of the Sherpas backs. And, and, and, and I have to trust him because he's the one that's crossing the ladders now with me on his back and, and having to walk a little faster because we're under a huge ice block that's creaking. And, and then, and then, and then they're sharing the load because he can't do it for the whole time. So then they put me down, another Sherpa picks me up, you know, I'm, I'm realizing at that point that they're valuing me. So that part I got immediately. And I, I have to tell you, it was so emotional that I was crying a lot of the times because I knew what these guys were risking, but to realize that it was the Everest expedition that gave this moment of enlightenment for me was probably.

Gast 1: After I got home and I was telling the stories to my family and to other people and, you know, that this happened and I realized I would never have had that experience if I hadn't gone to Everest. So what would be considered a very terrible moment, a very down moment, one where I felt like I was, you know, to see my team and the same Sherpas leaving me in the ice fall that they have to get out and they're, they're leaving. And I'm by myself trying to get myself out of here as best I can. What should have taken me probably an hour and a half. I was in there for at least four hours. And then to see them come back, you know, that, that was an immediate visceral response to me that, oh my gosh, I can't believe they're doing this. And, and then to realize that, wow, as bad as that experience was, it was a, such a learning moment for me. Aha moment, like you said.

Gast 2: And which shows the, the, the deepness of your reflection. You, you, you know, the, the culture of the Sherpas, right. And what drives them. I just had a chat a couple of, I think it was two days ago, two weeks ago, um, with a Sherpa in Nepal, um, lives in Kathmandu. And, um, the, the impressive thing was that when he talked about Everest, you know, it was, it didn't mean anything to him.

Yeah.

Gast 2: Yeah. And he said, you know, I've been, I've been on Everest six or seven times. I asked him, you know, six or seven, he said, I don't know, six, seven times. And, um, his, his, his motivation was a much different one, right. Um, helping, helping others to achieve their goals and, um, to, to learn about and getting in touch with people that he was able to learn from. Um, so it's that if, if, if, if the two of you, the Sherpa and you, it's like this, um, combined humbleness. You being humbled about their culture, their behavior and deeply acknowledging what they have done. And the same humbleness from the other side, from, from the Sherpas, um, to the, um, Western culture, the people that want to climb their mountains. And of course, he said, when, when somebody arrives in Kathmandu going for Everest, the time he's there, he's feeding 100 people. Because of the money that they spend in the country. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And to have those, those, those two side humbleness, such a great feeling that, that you get across right now. Um, understanding what, still understanding what they have done and not the helpers just, you know, that support you to get up there, but risking their lives to take you down.

Gast 1: Yeah. I, in fact, um, one of these Sherpas, we have become very good friends. He had been telling me during the whole expedition about the culture of the women in, uh, at least up in the Himalayas. And he want, he had a daughter that he really wanted to have an experience outside of Nepal. And so he had been talking to me about, you know, how likely would it be that his daughter could come to the United States to experience the culture and whatever. And in the end, um, about a year after this incident, we kept in touch. And with the help of a couple of other climbing friends, uh, for finances, financial reasons, my wife and I was able to bring his daughter to the United States. So she came to live with us for two years in Utah, which was just like amazing for us, but totally life-changing for her. And, uh, she attended school here in the United States and was just learning the culture and what was going on. And ever since then, I have been very closely tied to this family in Nepal. And through that Sherpa have made very close connections with other Sherpas there. So, for example, when we trek, um, to Everest base camp, most trekking companies will take you up the Khumbu Valley and then back down the same way. I do a little bit of a detour where we go up to this village that's not on the route to Everest, but it's where most of the high altitude Sherpas come from. And we spend some time with the families there because these are very close friends with, with me. And some of them were actually the Sherpas that were involved into the 1996 into thin air tragedy that John Krakauer talks about, you know, where 11 people died on the mountain. And we, I invite the Sherpas to come and talk with my clients and I asked them, tell the story of what you experienced on that eventful evening, that day and evening. And the story is very different than what you might've read in the book or seen in the movie, because we get the version of the Western climbers version. These are the Sherpas that were in the position of making sure that oxygen tanks were placed at the right places and, you know, why the ropes weren't where they were supposed to be and all of this. And it's just a totally different perspective. And when you're done with it and you've asked them questions and stuff, it's just like you said, you realize that they were there. Obviously they're there because they can make good money, but once they're hired, their commitment to the expedition is to do everything that they can to make sure you come back down off that mountain alive. And to hear how they have to do that within the confines of what they've been told by their group leaders and by the Western climbers, their lives are one in which it's all based on humbleness, compassion, and just this sense of obligation to take care of the people that they've been asked to take care of. And that opened my eyes to the realization of why those Sherpas came back to get me. You know, for them, it was because we left something of value in that icefall and we have to risk everything to go back and get it. So for me, like I've said before, I live my life now as much as I possibly can to never, ever demean that effort on their part. That if my life is not one to be valued, I feel like I've let them down. Wow.

Gast 2: This is the real story. Yeah.

Thanks for sharing, Stacey. Thanks for sharing, Stacey. Thanks for sharing.